fuel effiency and fuel prices.

[DJ]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

What DJ said . . . BTW, an LPG "blend" of higher butane, ethane etc, can potentially have lower octane than gasoline . . .

It's a BIG problem with our product and LNG. When the good stuff (methane) starts to boil off and vent, the octane goes progressively lower as the percentage of ethane, propane, butane etc. gets higher. We used to run without a knock sensor; not sure why, but we also used to buy a lot of cylinder heads

Those heads aren't cheap either.

 

[DJ]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

Ethanol and E85 look pretty promising. E85 currently runs about 20 cents cheaper per gallon around here, but instead of being cheaply piped in to the gas stations, they have to deliver it in tanker trucks still, which if enough people used it, they could reverse the two and pipe in E85 and truck in gasoline, that would bring the savings to somewhere between 60-80 cents cheaper than piped gas, although if gas was being trucked, it would be even more expensive so it would look like it was $1 - $1.20 cheaper. It burns a lot cleaner and cooler in the engine, too, so it's a lot better for the vehicle. It's also better in terms of not adding as much to global warming greenhouse gasses, although I have shifted my opinion on global warming, and now think it could be a very good thing if used properly.

It is $.20/gallon cheaper and it only has about 85% of the BTU's (conservatively, actually quite a bit less). Thus. you use 15% more (at least) of it. In the end, it's a loser. Not to mention it has a hard time lighting off in cold weater and is corrosive.

Farmers love it, it's jacking the price of corn right through the ceiling.

 

[mscher]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

If our friends in New Deli can now buy a brand new car for 2500 that gets 50 mph and available to the masses why if we are so smart cant have the same friggin thing? There lies part of the problem.

We already do.

It's called a golf cart

 

[guy74]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

It is $.20/gallon cheaper and it only has about 85% of the BTU's (conservatively, actually quite a bit less). Thus. you use 15% more (at least) of it. In the end, it's a loser. Not to mention it has a hard time lighting off in cold weater and is corrosive.

Farmers love it, it's jacking the price of corn right through the ceiling.

Yeah, but Us farmers aren't gonna see any more $ from it. All of our suppliers (fertilizer, seed, and chemical weed control) have jacked up there prices enough that it eats up any extra profit from the higher prices.

On the topic of the thread, I have four pickups that use a dual fuel setup, LPG and gasoline. They are chore trucks, never driven very far or fast, they use around 20% less propane than gasoline. They are all '70's V8 350 chevys, (2 automatics, 2 manuals), we just use a 100lb bottle on each one since they never get over 10 miles from home, and I can switch to gasoline if I need to. I know that there is less power in a gallon of LPG than a gallon gasoline but I guess the LPG system is better at metering at idle and low throttle applicatons, than the four-barrel carbs. LPG is around $2.00 here, gasoline is $2.99.

 

[DJ]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

Yeah, but Us farmers aren't gonna see any more $ from it. All of our suppliers (fertilizer, seed, and chemical weed control) have jacked up there prices enough that it eats up any extra profit from the higher prices.

On the topic of the thread, I have four pickups that use a dual fuel setup, LPG and gasoline. They are chore trucks, never driven very far or fast, they use around 20% less propane than gasoline. They are all '70's V8 350 chevys, (2 automatics, 2 manuals), we just use a 100lb bottle on each one since they never get over 10 miles from home, and I can switch to gasoline if I need to. I know that there is less power in a gallon of LPG than a gallon gasoline but I guess the LPG system is better at metering at idle and low throttle applicatons, than the four-barrel carbs. LPG is around $2.00 here, gasoline is $2.99.

Guy,

LPG is propane. Propane and gasoline are just about a wash in performance an economy.

LNG and CNG are quite a bit less in efficiency and power.


My Daughter in Laws father is a dairy farmer. He's thinking about getting rid of the cows. There's more money, for him, in corn.

 

[guy74]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

My Daughter in Laws father is a dairy farmer. He's thinking about getting rid of the cows. There's more money, for him, in corn.

Yeah there are places where the prices are going to make the farmers more money, but not in the dryland farming areas around here. The logistics of farming vary greatly in different places, cattle are a better money maker here, especially dairy cattle. I guess thats why most people here are (farmer/ranchers)

 

[Caveman Charlie]

Re: fuel efficiency and fuel prices.

Re: fuel efficiency and fuel prices.

It is $.20/gallon cheaper and it only has about 85% of the BTU's (conservatively, actually quite a bit less). Thus. you use 15% more (at least) of it. In the end, it's a loser. Not to mention it has a hard time lighting off in cold weater and is corrosive.

Farmers love it, it's jacking the price of corn right through the ceiling.

It is corrosive but, not that bad. Any car made after 72 or so can run on a easy 10% blend, maybe more. We have been running E10 in our: 78 F150, 86 F250, my 81 t-bird, 76 lemans, 84 Mark VII , 95 f150, and 73 silverline boat whiteout any problems.

 

[waterinthefuel]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

Can't he just stick a pipe in the south end of the cow and get the best out of both worlds?

Oh, did I just say that?

Oh gosh I think I did!

 

[aspeck]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

Can't he just stick a pipe in the south end of the cow and get the best out of both worlds?

Wouldn't that depend on which direction the cow was facing at the time?

 

[QC]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

LNG and CNG are quite a bit less in efficiency and power.

That's not really 100% accurate. The issue again is that the fuel itself takes up room in the cylinder and displaces some air so yes, some loss in max power capability, but efficiency is retained . . . Otto cycle engines (thrtottle and spark plugs) burn most fuels at aboiut the same efficiency when optimised for that fuel. Diesels too for that matter. When I say efficiency I mean using the same amount of BTUs for the same output.

 

[DJ]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

That's not really 100% accurate. The issue again is that the fuel itself takes up room in the cylinder and displaces some air so yes, some loss in max power capability, but efficiency is retained . . . Otto cycle engines (thrtottle and spark plugs) burn most fuels at aboiut the same efficiency when optimised for that fuel. Diesels too for that matter. When I say efficiency I mean using the same amount of BTUs for the same output.

QC,

I was speaking of LNG and CNG in conversions to gasoline engines.

LPG (propane) performs much better in my first hand experience.

 

[QC]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

Yeah, we are pretty dern close to 100% agreement DJ. Again, "optimised" is the key. It's just that CNG and LNG are awesome fuels with one major exception. They don't like staying put. As far as getting an engine to burn them correctly, I agree, as a conversion LPG is closer to the original fuel (gasoline), so duplicating gasoline performance is easier. However, if the engine is optimised for use with Methane (CNG and LNG) they can actually outperform both LPG and Gasoline. No biggee, clarity being the only motivator . . .

BTW, the other thing I run into over and over is poor comparisons of energy content. As an example High Heat Value (HHV) vs. Low Heat Value (LHV) can throw these comparisons off by 15%. The fact is it is very hard to know exactly how exactly many BTUs you got in your bucket 'O fuel, or how many you paid for vs. how many you received. No matter what fuel . . .

 

[QC]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

I literally just got this fuel analysis from a customer via email. This will be used in 9 x 8000 hp natural gas compressor drive engines for a gas pipeline project. It shows his particular composition of natural gas. Much less controlled and regulated than diesel and gasoline . . . This is actually pretty good stuff for pipeline gas. The worrying piece is the 3.39% Ethane in the High case.

Avg​

High​

Low​

CO2​

1.539%​

1.705%​

1.457%

N2​

1.165%​

1.649%​

0.771%​

Methane C1​

94.675%​

95.095%​

93.522%​

Ethane C2​

2.260%​

3.329%​

1.939%​

Propane C3​

0.240%​

0.429%​

0.170%​

I-Butane IC4​

0.028%​

0.046%​

0.008%​

N-Butane NC4​

0.038%​

0.070%​

0.011%​

I-Pentane IC5​

0.013%​

0.023%​

0.002%​

N-Pentane NC5​

0.010%​

0.019%​

0.001%​

Hexanes+ C6+​

0.030%​

0.064%​

0.004%​

Total​

100.00%​

Specific Gravity​

0.5903​

0.5969​

0.5879

Edit: sorry it isn't pasting well. Looked perfect when I posted . . . Still able to follow if you are patient.

 

[whywhyzed]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

[....

 

[Caveman Charlie]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

A/C the only one I'd miss, but 5 no problem, and 7 and 8 are for people that can't drive

I would like a AM and Fm and maybe a CD player but I agree the rest is stuff you don't need anyway.