Polyester for wood waterproofing

109jb

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Will be doing a complete rebuild of my 1988 Sea Ray this fall and trying to get my ducks in a row. The plan is to use polyester resin and cloth for covering the large flat pieces like the floor and stringers before they go in. Having said that, I have heard of people thinning Polyester resin with acetone for the first coat before immediately applying the cloth with unthinned resin. I have heard of ratio's of 1 part resin to 4 to 6 parts acetone for the thinned resin. The theory is that it will soak into the wood providing waterproofing and since you are applying the unthinned resin and cloth immediately afterward it also enhances the bond to the wood. Has anyone else heard of this or have any experience with this type of thing??

Thanks

John B.
 

tysonnathan

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

after the glassing of the stringers, i plan to seal everything with a two part epoxy paint... this will seal everything down there. i will do the same to the bottom of the deck before putting it down. after everthing is down i will take it to have a spray in bedliner put in. there will be NO water under the deck and no rotting wood in my boat:)

doesnt answer your particular question but may give you some ideas.. good luck!
 

Joe_the_boatman

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

I have heard of people thinning Polyester resin with acetone for the first coat before immediately applying the cloth with unthinned resin. I have heard of ratio's of 1 part resin to 4 to 6 parts acetone for the thinned resin.

Sure that ratio isn't backwards? I thinned epoxy (I know, it's not polyester....) w/ about 10% xylene. This stuff was like water. Soaked in so quick that as I was working inches away, it already soaked in and none was on the surface (not glossy at all).

Bottom line, maybe try a test piece w/ less thinner and see how it works. You'll know for sure then.
 

jonesg

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

Yep, thinning the resin give penetration, but it also makes getting that first layer of cloth down a lot easier, the brush will not drag the cloth around.

Lay cloth on dust free wood, using a large DRY brush with long bristles start from the middle and brush outwards, this causes a static charge and makes the cloth cling to the wood.
Thin the acetone to water like texture and start in the middle, brush outwards. You will need to add more acteone as you work because it vents off very quickly, alcohol evaporates slower but acetone is fine, keep a fan blowing and don't smoke or use halogen lamps or boom!
 

NSBCraig

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

You probably want to use vinylester or epoxy not polyester.

Polyester is the worst and epoxy is the best.
 

oops!

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

as you can see.....there is lots of ideas and suggestions here all have merritt


im not a big fan of thinning resin....even for what your doing......

when you glass the stringers or transom......use the unwaxed laminating resin....colder cure.......let that soak in a bit....then using a regular cure....add the first layer of matt.....the exothermic heat of the glass layer will help the coating layer cure.....by the time you get the woving on....it will be plenty waterproof..........

remember....your boat lasted some twenty years the way it was......the way you are doing it.....it will last a lot longer than that

cheers
oops
 

ondarvr

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

The subject of thinning resin, both polyester and epoxy comes up frequently. I'll discuss polyesters more than epoxies, but I've read testing on it too.

While it sounds good to thin the resin for better penetration, and it will most likely penetrate slightly deeper depending on the density of the wood, what actually happens is you are degrading the resin. Both types of resin are formulated for certain ingredients at specific levels, when you start adding other things to it, you change how the products work and cure. These large amounts of solvents make the resins weaker, less water resistant, less UV resistant, less crack resistant and softer, not characteristics you're looking for in a Marine resin.

Stopping rot is more about keeping the wood dry than how deep the resin penetrates, if the wood gets wet from poor workmanship it will eventually rot no matter how deep either type of resin gets into it.

Just use the resin as is, catalyze it at the low end of the range, spread it on the wood and let it soak in, if needed use more than one coat. Wait for this to at least start getting hard before you put the glass down and pre wet the surface before laying the glass in place.

If you insist on thinning, then use only 3% or so, at that level you won't see many of the problems.
 

oops!

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

If you insist on thinning, then use only 3% or so, at that level you won't see many of the problems.

just to put 3% in perspective....(how little it is) your cat rate is between 1.5% cold cure and 2.5% hot cure.......so acitone (your thinner)....in a 3% situation....is uasually drops........


i once heard a pro say :)D)......"all too often 3% turns into 30%
 

jonesg

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

My first attempts thinning I used alcohol as its less volatile and allows more time to work but it took weeks for the resin to fully harden, it stayed like hard rubber for quite a while. I was molding parts and they'd distort when popped out. It required slow baking the part in the mold to get it out.

Adding acetone is a different story, if you mix up 1 qt of resin the acetone will be gone before you can brush it all on ,
within 5 minutes the resin goes from water to the typical corn syrup and cures with no difference in time. As long as the acetone is vented off before the resin starts to get rubbery its gone. If the resin goes off before the acetone vents then its gonna take a while to fully cure but it will.

I just find it a lot easier to brush water compared to brushing corn syrup and its a lot easier to brush more resin on than to sand excess off.
Thinning eliminates the globs that can happen with regular mixed resin.
Going back over the second time with straight resin is a lot faster because nothing will pull out of place.

TAcking with spray contact cement is another approach, it depends on whatcha doin though. That would make a mess inside a mold.
 

ondarvr

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

This may sound a little strong, but what you're advocating is a very bad practice, thinning resin to the consistancy of water with acetone and then not expecting it to have an effect on the physical properties of the cured resin is crazy. It also seems like you're fighting a problem (wetting out cloth) that few people experience after just a short time of getting used to it and I'm not sure what you're talking about with the resin globs with a normal mix. The reason for the rubbery slow cure with high sovlent levels is they inhibit the crosslinking that takes place, the longer it takes to crosslink the poorer it is. Acetone and other solvents will eventually evaporate out of the laminate, but when they leave there's nothing in the space they left and while microscopic, these voids weaken the resin and let water more easily migrate through it. It's practices like these that create the polyester is junk line of thought, the product is miss used to the point where it no longer has a chance of working and when it fails it's the resins fault. I'm sorry that I need to state it this way, but I don't want people to get the idea that this a method they should try.
 

Chris1956

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

Ondarvr, I liked your reasoning and advice. I also found thru experience that poly resin is plenty strong and waterproof for stringers, frames, floors and other repair jobs. It also penetrates quite well (undiluted), if the wood is dry.

I do not understand the purpose of the two-part epoxy paint one poster cited. Poly resin is sufficient for coating the wood and easier and cheaper.

I always coat all sides of the plywood floor or stringer lumber I use, I sometimes put some cloth on the bottom of the plywood floor to help it stick to the stringers and foam.

I only use epoxy resin for high strength critical repairs to the hull.

Just my .02
 

tysonnathan

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

Ondarvr, I liked your reasoning and advice. I also found thru experience that poly resin is plenty strong and waterproof for stringers, frames, floors and other repair jobs. It also penetrates quite well (undiluted), if the wood is dry.

I do not understand the purpose of the two-part epoxy paint one poster cited. Poly resin is sufficient for coating the wood and easier and cheaper.

I always coat all sides of the plywood floor or stringer lumber I use, I sometimes put some cloth on the bottom of the plywood floor to help it stick to the stringers and foam.

I only use epoxy resin for high strength critical repairs to the hull.

Just my .02


I plan to glass everything with poly resin, and then put on the epoxy "paint" (not resin) to water proof. If poly resin alone was sufficient, my boat would have never rotted to begin with. Poly resin is not water proof, only water resistant. A jam-up glassing job will give you 20 or 25 years, which I am not content with. So, after glassing, I will seal it with an epoxy paint. I want my kids and grandkids to enjoy this boat too....
 

109jb

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

I think one thing that is being overlooked in my original post is that the thinned resin IS NOT BEING USED TO LAY THE CLOTH!!! The thinned resin is first painted on and allowed to soak in, then the cloth is laid using UNTHINNED RESIN.
 

jonesg

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

This may sound a little strong, but what your advocating is a very bad practice, thinning resin to the consistancy of water with acetone and then not expecting it to not have an effect on the physical properties of the cured resin is crazy. It also seems like your fighting a problem (wetting out cloth) that few people experience after just a short time of getting used to it and I'm not sure what you're talking about with the resin globs with a normal mix. The reason for the rubbery slow cure with high sovlent levels is they inhibit the crosslinking that takes place, the longer it takes to crosslink the poorer it is. Acetone and other solvents will eventually evaporate out of the laminate, but when they leave there's nothing in the space they left and while microscopic, these voids weaken the resin and let water more easily migrate through it. It's practices like these that create the polyester is junk line of thought, the product is miss used to the point where it no longer has a chance of working and when it fails it's the resins fault. I'm sorry that I need to state it this way, but I don't want people to get the idea that this a method they should try.


You could settle it for yourself by talking to a chemist, I already did many yrs ago at fibreglast, no problems at all as long as the acetone vents before the resin goes off.
 

jonesg

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

I think one thing that is being overlooked in my original post is that the thinned resin IS NOT BEING USED TO LAY THE CLOTH!!! The thinned resin is first painted on and allowed to soak in, then the cloth is laid using UNTHINNED RESIN.

Its a bit awkward positioning cloth on the tacky or wet surface.
Probably doesn't matter for stringers too much but exterior top deck work such as around compound curves would make it hard to lay.

Why not just settle it for yourself and try it, you'll see whats easier.
 

109jb

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

Its a bit awkward positioning cloth on the tacky or wet surface.
Probably doesn't matter for stringers too much but exterior top deck work such as around compound curves would make it hard to lay.

Why not just settle it for yourself and try it, you'll see whats easier.


Yep. Gonna run some tests tonight.
 

oops!

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

You could settle it for yourself by talking to a chemist, I already did many yrs ago at fibreglast, no problems at all as long as the acetone vents before the resin goes off.


jones....i dont want to get into a whos right and whos wrong thing.....and i dont want to speak for ondarvr.......

ive read lots of your posts and im a fan of yours

but for the op....i must add....please read all ondarvrs posts twice.....(he speaks with chemists all day about this stuff).....he is ...simply put....known across the nation as one of the formost experts on glass/gellcoat around....

now....thats a big tag to hang on someone....but it is investigated...and it is truth

cheers
oops
 

ondarvr

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

I don't doubt you once talked to a chemist in the field of polyester, the difference is I work with them every day and while not a chemist myself I have a great deal training and experience in that field.
If it were possible to remove all of the acetone (and you can't) then it wouldn't be quite as bad, but even when atomizing gel coat or resin through a gun there is a residual amount left in the mix. This acetone inhibits the cure by not allowing the crosslinking to be as complete as it could be. Picture a ladder with many rungs, these rungs would be the crosslinking, when acetone is added you're removing rungs from the ladder and making it weaker, the more acetone, the fewer rungs left. It's a little different with styrene, with styrene you may still get the crosslinking but it's not the same, as strong or water resistant as without it.

People always want to use the best products possible for the best results and then insist on using them in a way that compromises the product.
If you do this to the first coat that soaks into the wood, then what's in the wood is of poor quality and you're building the rest of your boat on this faulty foundation. It's the same with using the water thin resin on the cloth, you just put junk down on the cloth and then hope the rest of the laminate makes up for it.

It's like Phen-Fen, it worked very well for weight reduction and seemed like the answer to everbody's problems, plus it worked like an anti depressant. It wasn't something that was studied or recommended, doctors and others just made short term observations of people on the drug combo and on the surface it appeared to have no down side. Long term it had horrible complications like heart valve damage and related issues. Heart surgery and law suits followed.

And then back to the polyester isn't water proof comments, nothing is water proof, somethings are just more water resistant than others.
Epoxy is more water resistant the polyester, but it's not waterproof. Wood does not rot because polyester was used and a few water molecules migrated through the laminate, it rots because water got in from poor workmanship, unsealed screws, poor design, or damage, it makes no difference whether it's epoxy or polyester, the same thing happens. A typical boats lasts 20+ years before the wood rots and that's on a cheap boat, the better ones last longer. When the boat is taken apart it's usually clear as to where the water got in, and it wasn't through an intact laminate.

Epoxies are great products and there are situations where it's very important to use them, but typical boat repair isn't one of them. If these were high end go fast boats with mega HP, designed to go as fast as possible and used fibers other than glass in their construction, then epoxy is the best choice. On a normal pleasure boat with moderate HP polyester is more than tough enough. Not even the bass boat industry uses epoxy in their overpowered, light, testosterone powered rigs, it's just normal polyester. If I saw a huge number of polyester boats fall apart unrelated to wood rot, then there might be an agrument for epoxy. But even boats in which every bit of wood has turned to pulp still float and get used everyday. Just look at the number of posts with someone saying they only have a soft spot in the floor and when they take it apart they're shocked to find all the wood is rotten.

PS. I checked out Fiber Glast, it appears they give some good advice, but they don't formulate, make or blend resin (there are only a very few companies that do and I work for one), so I don't think the person you talked with was a polyester chemist.
 

ondarvr

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

I forgot the part about putting glass down on a pre-wetted surface, that is how it's done. Glass shops (including boat builders) always apply resin to the surface before laying the glass down, it makes for a much better job. Placing the glass down can be a little harder, but not much, and then only until you get used to it, wetting out glass from the top down is much more difficult than from the bottom up. Moving the glass after it's in place isn't that hard either, once wet out it can be moved with a roller, brush, squeegee or by hand.
 

109jb

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Re: Polyester for wood waterproofing

Well, I did an experiment. I took a scrap piece of AC plywood, untreated and dry for the test.

On one side of the plywood, I laid up 1 ply of fiberglass cloth using polyester resin mixed as the can instructions said. I first painted the unthinned catylyzed resin on the wood and then laid the glass cloth down and used the brush and additional resin to fully wet it out. I left a tab of cloth so that I could peel it off later.

On the other side of the plywood, I first brushed on the thinned catylized resin. The mix I used was 2 ounces resin, 2 ounces acetone, and enough catylyst for 4 ounces(32 drops total, 8 drops per ounce). I was told to do it this way so that's what I tried. Once the thinned resin was painted on and had soaked in I brushed on some unthinned resin, laid the cloth and wetted it out using more resin and the brush. Incidentally, I used a different brush for the thinned resin and the unthinned resin.

In both cases, the brushed area of resin was made larger than what was covered by the cloth. On the side with the thinned resin the area outside the cloth was then only the unthinned resin painted area.

What were the results?? After about 24 hours cure, I very unscientifically peeled the cloth pieces from the wood. The unthinned sample was noticeably easier to peel off than the side that had the thinned resin painted on first. The side with the thinned resin had a few bits of wood fiber hanging on here and there to the cloth when pulled off. The unthinned cloth did not. Again, unscientifically, there was no noticeable difference in the stiffness of the two pieces of cloth once peeled off the wood. All of the resin painted on the wood was dry to the touch with no tackiness. The side of the wood that had the thinned resin had the coloration like it did after painting the resin on. The side with the unthinned resin looked like bare wood once the cloth was peeled up. The unused unthinned resin in the cup was hard and could be scratched with a screwdriver. The unused thinned resin in the cup was a bit rubbery when I tried to scratch it.

There it is. My unscientific experiment. Take from it what you will. I have made my decision as to how I will proceed.
 
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