Trouble with Craigslist sell

[Nandy]

Well, troubles selling attack again! I have a family member visit about a month ago due to a family emergency. He dont live in this state. He was in need of money and wanted to sell one of his guitars. Since he was visiting I offer to help by providing my email as a mean of contact. After the first email contact I used my phone to communicate with the prospect buyers but I passed the phone to the seller in order for him to answer questions.

Both guitars were posted in Craigslist to see which sell first. One of them was a Martin D. He asked a bit under 600 for it. I thought it was crazy to try to sell a guitar for that much money but I help him list it. I used my email as he don't have one.

In less than 10 minutes the emails started to fly, Im not lying to you, over 21 emails about 30 minutes after I post it. I realized we probably was selling it too low but at that time we were not changing the price.

The first buyer showed up and after see it, play it and inspect it he try to get it 100 dollars cheaper. Of course after all that amount of interest the seller said no and the guy purchased it. I was so curious about the right price for the guitar so I researched it. The price of the guitar is over $2,000...

About a week after that he buyer calls and claims the guitar is a counterfeit and he wants his money. He goes around how he talked to all of his police friends and how they told him to file charges. I told him he was barking at the wrong tree as I did not sell him the guitar or profit from the sale in any way and his police/lawyer/court gibberish did not impressed me at all. He asked for the seller phone number but I did not give it away and told the buyer I will tell the seller what he claimed. Of course, the seller dont believe him. I believe the seller had no idea, if in fact this is a counterfeit, that this was not a real Martin D. He would not offer it to me if he knew it was a fake.

I explained the buyer the seller was a bit skeptic. The buyer supposedly contacted Martin later on and described the guitar and gave the serial number. Martin supposedly replied back agreeing that was not a martin guitar. Seller contacts me and send me the email. I call the buyer and tells him what the seller told me (I cant sent him the email, he dont have one) and ask him to call him. He is skeptic but he says he will talk to the buyer. Buyer calls again and claims the seller has not called. I called seller again and he says he will call buyer. 2 weeks pass and I get another email from the seller asking if the buyer was calling him or not so he could start legal action. I told him I have done all I could and could not tell him what the buyer was going to do as I have no idea. He replies back telling me that he is going to take legal action against me as he claims I am part of the sale party unless i give him all the money or 2 third of the money and he get to keep the guitar.
I told him I did not care about his legal action and not to call me or email me back and I was done with him. Of course, he emailed back venting his frustration which I will not reply.

So, If you ask me, he dont have a leg to stand taking me to court to claim money. I did not own the guitar, sell the guitar to him or profit in any way. What do you think about that?

As far as the seller, legally, I dont think he has to return all the money. He is not a luthier or a guitar expert and represented the guitar to the best of his knowledge. The buyer should have bring his luthier or someone knowledgeable before buying the guitar. As the seller should have do his research before pricing the guitar the buyer should have done his research before buying the guitar but he was in too much in a hurry and too greedy to get the guitar first to take the time to do his research. It does bother me that he tried to low ball the seller for as much as 100 dollar from a guitar that was already priced a quarter of the price.

However, if I were the seller i would probably give him half the money back... But that is not my decision...

 

[Mark42]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

Why did your relative sell a $2000 guitar for $600? That sounds fishy to me.

Counterfeit guitars are common. How much did your relative pay for it?

Sucks getting stuck in these situations. Hope things work out for you.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

By way of review - you listed the guitar on Craigslist, you had the guitar in your possesion, you showed it to the buyer, you accepted the final deal, you accepted the money, you gave the guitar to the buyer after the payment, you received the complaint, and you refused to put the buyer in contact with your relative. Assuming that the buyer has a legitimate complaint ( which I have no opinion of at this point), what would you have him do? To him, you are just a guy who claims there is someone else selling the instrument, but has never seen him, talked to him, or dealt with him in any way.

I know you mean well, but my advice is to give the guy your relative's phone number ASAP, and get out of the middle of this thing.

Also, any chance that the Guitar is a Martin Sigma? If so, it is actually a Martin Guitar, but is their economy line and is differentiated from the regular Martin line by the Sigma name. The "D" designation in the model description indicates that is is a "Dreadnought" body. This is a common designation for a lot of acoustic guitar manufacturers, and there is usually a number following the "D." The number indicates which Dreadnought model that particular guitar happens to be.


BTW - Having owned a few acoustic guitars in my time, I had to smile when you said you thought $600 was too much. Here are a few "cheapo" Martins offered by Mandolin Brothers, in Staten Island, NY. If your buyer is unhappy with his current purchase, perhaps he would like one of them. Tell him not to bother asking for $100 off, though.

Used 1913 Model 00-45 for $28,000
Used 1930 Model 00-40H for $25,000
Used 2003 Model 00-45 for $18,500
New 2008 Model D-28, 1937 Reissue for $31,999 (marked down from $39,999)

Or, perhaps he would like a nice James D'Aquisto Archtop (1994 Centura 17" Cutaway) for a mere $125,000!

 

[xxxflhrci]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

All of it sounds fishy. I don't get why your relative needed your email. He could use his or set up an account in minutes. I also don't get why he was selling a 2k guitar for 600 bucks. It sounds like the relative might have known it was fake and wanted to muddy the waters by involving you. You need to give the buyer all the info needed to contact your relative and distance yourself from this. If you don't, you could become part of a fraud investigation.

 

[Mark42]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

Tell your relative to call the buyer. Find out what is going on, why he is not calling, how he came to own the guitar.

Be prepaired to be named in a lawsuit.

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

No good deed goes unpunished!

 

[mthieme]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

Yup, doesn't look go for you...right, wrong or indifferent.
You are involved like it or not.
It's pretty obvious that your relative knows something you don't.
If the guitar is genuine and can fetch $2K, seems to me he would be anxious to get it back and resell it. You could do the same for that matter.
Smells awful horseshoe crabby to me.

 

[Nandy]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

Jay, I dont undersand why you think I did all that. Must be my English. All I did was post it for him and use my email as I already have an Craigslist account and he didnt. There was no reason for him to set up an email account he wont be able to use at home since he dont have internet. He did all the talking to the customers in the phone and in person, all i did was answer the phone calls, pass them to him and give the guys my address to come and see it.
As far as the guitar, it was given to him as a debt payment. He dont know much about guitars.

As far as him knowing it was a counterfeit guitar, he has too much to loose to do that to me. I believe this to be true. He is just so out of luck latelly that I think he just can bare the idea. I will probably call him again.

 

[aspeck]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

Nandy, one thing is certain, you HAVE to get out of the negotiations at this point. If the relative will not call the buyer, then give the buyer the relative's phone number. If you do not remove yourself, then you are setting yourself up to be included in a small claims court case.

By the way, I am not an attorney and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night, so take what I said for what it is worth ... not much!

 

[tommays]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

My son who sold Guitars at a national chain for a few years bought a counterfeit that was taken in on a trade you would think they would be better at there research

He was real lucky that he had bought it on the up and up and was able to return it

One good thing is that the better makers do keep real carefull track of the serial numbers which is how he found it when it started to seem a bit off at home

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

Jay, I dont undersand why you think I did all that. Must be my English. All I did was post it for him and use my email as I already have an Craigslist account and he didnt. There was no reason for him to set up an email account he wont be able to use at home since he dont have internet. He did all the talking to the customers in the phone and in person, all i did was answer the phone calls, pass them to him and give the guys my address to come and see it.

Yeah, I did get the impression that you were handling all of the transaction. That said, I still think you made a major mistake by not getting out of the middle of the sale as soon as the problem came up. By refusing to give the buyer your relative's phone number, you were running interference for him. If I were the buyer, I would take that as lack of good faith - especially after buying something that was represented to me as being a product of a premium brand, and then finding out it was a fake.

You have to understand that a Martin is not just any guitar. They are considered to be among the best of any brand, and the company has been in the business for 175 years. Even if the buyer is a novice, he has likely heard the name and recognises its value. There are, in fact, models of Martin guitars that would be expected to fetch around $600, used. That being the case, I can see how he was fooled.

If the guitar is really a knockoff, my opinion is that your friend ought to take the guitar back, refunding all of the money given to him by the buyer. Your relative can then deal with the person who gave it to him in payment of whatever debt existed.

 

[gonefishie]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

Isn't Craigslist the same thing as a swap meet? no refund, no return, as is? Shame on the seller for scamming but shame on the buyer too for not knowing better. I don't think the buyer can do anything other then threats. He will have to learn a lesson the hard way. You don't just hand over that kind of cash to a total stranger without doing your homework first.

 

[Nandy]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

Isn't Craigslist the same thing as a swap meet? no refund, no return, as is? Shame on the seller for scamming but shame on the buyer too for not knowing better. I don't think the buyer can do anything other then threats. He will have to learn a lesson the hard way. You don't just hand over that kind of cash to a total stranger without doing your homework first.

That is my impression too. Again, I have faith the seller had no knowledge it was not a real Martin, I would be very surprised if he did.

What I gather from the buyer was that he rushed buying the guitar as he wanted to close that great deal before any other buyers showed up. I wouldn't give that amount of money to an stranger without knowing what I am buying. If I do, I know I am on my own. Anyway, I am calling him tonight to tell him the buyer is calling me again. I wish he start dealing with him directly...

As far as the phone number, that is reason #1 I want my relative to call the buyer, so they do whatever they are going to do and leave me out of it. The buyer was told that my relative was here just for a few days and needed the money. The seller told him in what state he lived on so there is not like the buyer did not knew he was going to be gone in a couple of days. He could had asked for the seller phone, address, whatever but he did not. Nothing was done hush hush and the buyer sat down to look at the guitar, play it, inspect it and more. He even called in before showing up asking for us to read the serial number and made sure the label said that it was built in USA. He could have called his luthier on the phone and described the guitar. There was no hurry in the side of the seller, he had buyers to choose from. The buyer simply did not do his work the same way the seller did not when he accepted the guitar as a payment for a debt.

The buyer was just drooling thinking he could get that guitar cheap, he even haggle to get it almost $100 cheaper. I am not a bit sorry for the buyer, but then again, this is not my business and I cannot see anything else happening than a judge telling me to give up the seller number. BTW, the buyer also told me he has tried to sell the guitar himself but he cant get all the money back hence that is why he is after us. The guitar might not be that bad when he offers to just get about half the money back returned and he will keep the guitar.

 

[mthieme]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

Why don't you give the buyer the seller's phone number.
Seems like this might go a long way in helping you out.

 

[Nandy]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

Why don't you give the buyer the seller's phone number.

Because I don't give anyones number away unless that person asked me too. I was counting on the seller to make that call and then they will be connected and me out of it without me giving the buyer the information myself.

 

[mthieme]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

Because I don't give anyones number away unless that person asked me too. I was counting on the seller to make that call and then they will be connected and me out of it without me giving the buyer the information myself.

Good rule of thumb.
However, circumstances dictate otherwise.
You're not helping yourself.

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

Before doing anything else stupid, consult a lawyer. You could very easily be sued by the buyer... in fact, if the buyer does file suit, you will absolutely be named in the suit. So once you have a lawyer, direct the buyer to your lawyer and explain that your lawyer will now be the person he will contact if he wants to communicate with you in any way.

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

The buyer was just drooling thinking he could get that guitar cheap, he even haggle to get it almost $100 cheaper. I am not a bit sorry for the buyer, but then again, this is not my business and I cannot see anything else happening than a judge telling me to give up the seller number.

That is not at all how the courts work... If you are named, the entire judgement will be against you unless you cross-sue the seller... and the judgement could be for more than the $600... there is nothing stopping him from seeking punitive damages as well... and my guess is, most courts would side with the buyer in this case. You NEED a lawyer.

If you don't see a lawyer at this point, I will have absolutely no sympathy for you when you end up having to eat the bill. Don't even try to complain about it... if you don't see a lawyer now, you're doing it to yourself and you'll deserve whatever happens.

 

[dolluper]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

The part that seems fishy is the buyer asked for the serial # before he showed up....maybe he is the scammer....do you have it written down so you can check yourself if it is a fake or not.....get your seller to do some footwork on it from where he got it in the first place

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

I still think you ought to just take the guitar back. That said, there is another reason why you should check the serial number on the guitar against the number that the seller, hopefully, wrote down - you want to make sure that you are getting back the same guitar that you sold. If there is a scam involved, it would be in buying a real Martin and then trying to give back a fake one.

As far as attorneys go, I just recommeded to someone in another thread, that they seek legal advice and assistance, before dealing with an insurance company that seems to be trying to deny a claim. Why? Because that person stands to lose about $70,000.

This one isn't worth getting an attorney involved. You will pay as much as the guitar is worth in two to three hours of that attorney's time. Even if the guy does sue you, he'll end up in small claims court, where you'll probably end up giving him back his money anyway.

Save yourself the trouble and just get it over with now.