Trim/Tilt problems

[Faerbairn]

Hi,

Force 120hp Outboard
Trim Pump # 37-43530-1
Bracket Serial # OEO62505

I have had off & on issues with the trim / tilt. Sometimes it will not do anything other than I can hear the electrical do one click. In the past it would run for a bit and then finally the outboard will lift or lower. I lifted the outboard and checked the fluid. It is a pink color. Does that seem right?

Does anyone have an idea that can help me fix the trim / tilt?

Thank you for your help,

Adam

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Trim/Tilt problems

I have not had to deal with t & t in a while but I will give you some suggestions and move this to the proper forum too.

Pink fluid usually means that someone has mixed red hydraulic fluid with clear.

Items to check.

Disconnect you battery first. With the battery disconnected remove each and every trim connection one at a time and sand the connector lightly with some 150 grit emery cloth or sandpaper. Every connection must be cleaned and do them one at a time so no wires get crossed.

Check your fluid level ...... connect the battery and see what happens.

Between vibration and moist conditions the electrical connections are the first to suffer.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: Trim/Tilt problems

Chrysler and force Trim/tyilt systems used variously three types of fluid: 30 weight motor oil, transmission fluid, and hydraulic fluid. So, yes, pink transmission fluid could be normal.

Normally, the motor running for a bit before the tilt/trim starts to move would indicate low fluid or possibly air in the system. SO: first, cycle the system to it's extremes several times to bleed air and refill the reservoir.

Doing nothing can be the result of several conditions. The easiest to check is the relay system, assuming your Force has them. The relays are high amperage switches and the contacts can pit and burn. So: the first thing to do would be to try another set of relays. Since they cost about 20 bucks each, if you are near a junkyard, the same relay without the mounting lug can be found in many GM autos. It is a standard 5 pin relay. If you can not do that, then try to borrow a known good set. Lacking that. disconnect the two wire cable to the motor and ground one (green) while jumping the other (blue) to the battery. The motor should turn in one direction (UP) Reversing the connections will reverse the direction of the motor. IF everything functions well at least several times, then you have proved that either one or both of the relays is bad or not getting signal.

Thus: Do not neglect to check the switch. Loose, broken, or corroded wiring at the switch will also cause intermittent problems.

 

[grego]

Re: Trim/Tilt problems

A buddy works for cat. repair co. said that all hydrolic is going to 30wt moter oil, with no changes to gate valves or anything. Just what he told me??

 

[RRitt]

Re: Trim/Tilt problems

you have ATF as your hydraulic fluid. It is not as good as non-detergent motor oil but it saved Mercury some money when they built your engine. You can't change fluids without draining and flushing out the old stuff.

The clicking and failing sound like either a relay or a corroded connection. It could be a malfunctioning circuit breaker inside mote, but probably not. My money goes on relay.

 

[grego]

Re: Trim/Tilt problems

Hey frank! can you maybe? help with the total drainage of fluid from the force engine,tilt and trim? I have looked at that system and am guessing as to "how to"???

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: Trim/Tilt problems

By the way: Do not run the motor after the system has reached its limits. This foams the fluid and will cause action similar to an air bound system.

In my opinion, complete draining usually means disassembling the system. I think you will find that RRitt would agree that you should stay with the fluid you now have since disassembling, draining, and reassembling can lead to stripped fittings, especially if there is a bit of corrosion showing on the parts. The risk is not worth the additional O ring life you may gain.

Save the fluid change for the day when new O rings are required or the pump fails..

While I know a little about tilt/trim, RRitt repairs them for a living--go with what he says.

Oh, yes. The junkyard relay numbers are: 56006709 and 56006707, among others. some have the schematic embossed on the case, but all have the pins numbered 30, 85, 86, 87, and 87A. 85 and 86 are signal terminals and 30, 87, and 87A are power and ground.

 

[RRitt]

Re: Trim/Tilt problems

What frank said. We don't even know what style system you have. Three different types of systems fit your engine.

The damage is already done. Unless debris or dirt has gotten into your system it probably isn't worth flushing at this late stage. Chances are that it will still break anyway. My advice would be fix relay/electrical and use it until it quits working. If the problem turns out to be circuit breaker inside of trim pump motor, then you can flush system while your pump is being fixed.

oh, also, putting in a thicker fluid may cause higher pressure in some systems. In one type of system used by Mercury ... ATF and hydraulic pressure combine to crystalize the trim piston o-ring. ATF east at oring anyway due to additives, but in one system the combination causes the rubber to congeal and crumble. If you have this type of system, switching to oil will just cause the thing to fail earlier.

ISO32 hydraulic fluid remains the most rubber friendly fluid. I doubt they will switch to motor oil. The risk of some mechanic putting in regular 30W is too great. There is no escaping the effect of "additives" on rubber when you want the system to last for more than ten years. In key places you can use Viton because it resists the additives but the cost of using viton throughout would add $300-$400 to the cost of a marine trim system. So ... long story short ... nah, i doubt they will switch to motor oil. ISO32 is already easier to find than ND30.

 

[BlazinKuztumz]

Re: Trim/Tilt problems

Hey guys, honestly not trying to hijack the thread, but .. I'm waiting to hear back from a guy that has a TNT unit for sale, and says that the pump and motor work fine, but it leaks a little. How hard are these units to fix/rebuild if I were to buy a used one like this? And yes, I know there are a lot of variables not known about the unit, condition, exact problems, etc. I was just looking for a general idea. He's wanting $150 for it, and has come down in price over the last few weeks because of inactivity on the sale I guess. Thanks.

 

[RRitt]

Re: Trim/Tilt problems

If it is saltwater then it's just a pile of parts. If it is freshwater then that's a fair price. Buy and use it until it breaks. That might be next week or it might already be broken. If it's 20years or more then it's on borrowed time. Has almost nothing to do with useage or maintenance. Purely a matter of age and oil additives. So repair costs need to be factored into your price.

Saltwater systems usually need a major overhaul and cost $270-$420 to rebuild. On the other hand a typical freshwater system usually just needs the pump assy (motor + valve body) rebuilt at $140-$250.

 

[BlazinKuztumz]

Re: Trim/Tilt problems

Rritt, I had asked a question above, and this is what I got back from the guy so far: leaks from center ram three times out needs fluid will take best offer thanks. I have also asked him if it's a salt water or fresh set up, and what size motor it will support. Do you, or does soemone else have a picture of what a full TNT unit for an 85hp Force would include, or look like? I'm starting to restore a boat, and I know it's premature at the moment on the TNT, but while I'm doing this, if I find one that's cheap, just wondered if it was worth it to pick up, especially if they can be rebuilt with new seals or something. I'm good with mechanics so that doesn't scare me, but buying something that I didn't know couldn't be/shouldn't be repaired, does. Also, we were thinking of doing a jack plate on the boat, which is something completely new to me, just found out about them the other day, and I had noticed that some come with TNT on them, would that be the better option for what I'm wanting to do with this 85 I'm redoing, instead of a jack plate and a TNT unit separate? Sorry for all the questions, just figured this is the place for answers, and you guys are the ones that seem to have em. Thanks.

 

[RRitt]

Re: Trim/Tilt problems

if it has an external fluid leak from center ram then the trim cover is probably damaged. The part is not replaceable and would most likely force you to buy a complete trim cylinder. In my eyes the pump is worth less than "good used". "Good used" really doesn't mean much but the chances of "good used" having internal damage is less than a system with busted trim cylinder. So ... I'd buy it for rebuilding with the anticipation that trim is trash and pump is likely to have complications .... $80 to $120 depending upon condition of threads and amount of visible corrosion.

 

[rdny041285]

Re: Trim/Tilt problems

not sure if this tilt/trim issue has been fixed or not but with the 1 click that you said, it sounds like the relay plugs....I had the same issue (hearing the click) and put new plugs in and works fine...(thanks to the help of everyone here)