Hybrid/electric boats.... How long?

[lowkee]

Re: Hybrid/electric boats.... How long?

That's interesting about the locomotives. So they are run on electric motors and the diesel is just used as a giant alternator? I also read somewhere in my clicking that the QE2 is run that way, which is crazy.. just imagine the electric motor to spin that prop.. the windings must be the thickness of my arm.

Kind of begs the question as to why they haven't done exactly that in cars already.. sounds way easier than the hybrid setup they have now.

Stop, if your dreaming of an electric boat that can match the power and range of an IC engine forget it, not happening in cars, not happening in boats.

We're not talking full electric. Batteries can only last so long. Even that boat had a generator on-board. As for power, nothing matches an electric motor for torque. Check out the Tesla (Tesla Motors). That thing has killer stats on it, but the price is in left field. In 1990(?), they had a fully electric car with a 100 mile range with plenty of power. Add a generator to that and you have just upped that range a LOT. My Neon on a good tank gets 320 miles, so the possibility of getting more via electric+genny in a car is certainly there. Boats.. the jury is still out if a genny can keep up with drain. One electric boat site mentioned 50 amps for full throttle (6mph), which seems doable for even a small generator, but what is the discharge rate for a planing hull @35mph?

There are plenty of smart people on this forum, the likelihood of one of them typing a message from their lab is pretty high, imo

 

[witenite0560]

Re: Hybrid/electric boats.... How long?

Not to mention $$$! Has to be affordable and $30K is not affordable to me.

 

[Mike Robinson]

Re: Hybrid/electric boats.... How long?

... I also read somewhere in my clicking that the QE2 is run that way, which is crazy.. just imagine the electric motor to spin that prop.. the windings must be the thickness of my arm...

Electric motors were quite common on ships, I used to work on a steam/electric ship years ago and there is at least one diesel electric tug working our coast. (British Columbia) I think they are still common on warships.

I'm no engineer, but I believe the main advantages of diesel electric on ships were that it was easier to control the shafts (no reduction gear or clutches needed) and it was a lighter system for vessels with more than 2 shafts. You could have just two heavy diesel engines providing electricity to 3 or 4 electric motors (shafts) and easily shut down the motors that were not needed when speed is not required.

I don't believe fuel economy was a factor.

 

[QC]

Re: Hybrid/electric boats.... How long?

Correct ^^^^^^ on the reason for electric motors on ships and locomotives . . . No need for a transmission as the electric motor handles all speed and load ranges. Most ships built today, even the very biggest, have gone back to diesel engines, Mega 2 cycles that run around 200 RPM and use mechanical transmissions. Mega mining trucks are another application where the debate is electromotive vs. mechanical drive.

A couple of other observations here:

A fuel cell is not "pure electric" . . . it still needs fuel. In fact you could say nothing is "pure electric" as the electricity to charge a battery comes from some source. Hydro electric pollutes the worse in some people's minds as it destroys rivers and fish migration. Gas and coal fired power plants, Nukes, Solar, Wind are all ways that power gets to your wall socket and then plugs into your electric boat.

Hydrogen is the fuel of the future and it always will be . . . Not gonna happen as hype would suggest. Does 10,000 psi storage pressure make sense to anybody? Five times the space for the same energy?

Hybrid is overused and misunderstood. In the case of these boats, the way they claim mileage increases is they do not count the energy for the initial charge, only the energy to run the engine to keep it going after the initial charge is depleted. In fact, if there is no initial charge they are less efficient. Period!!! There is increased weight for the same power output AND the shaft power that comes out of an electric motor that has been generated by an internal combustion engine is less efficiently supplied than simply getting the power out of the engine directly. These things appeal to people's emotions, not reality.

lowkee is correct, no braking with boats, so there is no wasted heat to recover through "regenerative braking". This is why true Hybrid cars get better fuel economy when running in stop and go traffic. Under a steady load they eventually end up slightly less efficient than a small diesel that is using a mechanical transmission. Ultimately once the battery is drained it is all about the engine's efficiency.

One legitimate thing is that electricity from your wall is cheaper on an energy basis than energy derived from gasoline or diesel on a consumer level. So IF you get some power from the wall, then it is cheaper and more efficient for the time you are using that power i.e. batteries alone. For most of us that would be less than an hour at say 100ish horsepower.

 

[Iandayen]

Re: Hybrid/electric boats.... How long?

It's actually just as safe to have a hydrogen tank in the back of your car than a gas tank, as long as it's secured correctly.

And the Hydrogen tanks are smaller than a gas tank.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/how-fcx-works.aspx

It is relatively simple, Hydrogen -> Fuel cell -> Electric Motor -> Drive

They are still using a lithium ion battery as a backup source or for when you need more power, you should think of the lithium as a secondary on your carb, when you step down on the gas, the lithium adds its power to the motor also, giving you more power to the wheels when it's needed.

There are already fuel cell boats in operation around the world

Germany has fuel cell 100 passenger ferries on Alster Lake link here


Here is a 39' cruise boat powered by fuel cells - linky linky

It won't be long until you see smaller, faster boats with fuel cell technology, and they will start popping out everywhere once hydrogen filling stations are more common.

 

[QC]

Re: Hybrid/electric boats.... How long?

Gasoline and safety are a joke, and I didn't mention safety . . .

You must compare energy equivalency when comparing tank sizes. Looking at one means nothing. You can run a fuel cell on any fuel, so again what we care about is how much energy can be stored in a specific space and at what weight. I am in the CNG and LNG (cryogenic) engine business and we store methane (NatGas) at 3600 psi, there are definite safety issues at 3600 and the hydrogen plan is 10,000 There are huge compression costs etc. etc. etc. I have no agenda on this site despite the obvious conflicts. With that said, every Hydrogen study I have ever seen assumes that it will be manufactured with "free" solar electricity. Ludicrous . . . Oh, oh, our engine technologies will run on Hydrogen. If we thought it was worth anything we would be developing for it. Fuel cells are cool and will have an impact in the marketplace when their costs etc. come down, but again, they do not require Hydrogen.

Also . . . there is zero Hydrogen infrastructure, no production to speak of and no pipelines. The other hydrogen plan is to reformulate Methane. Why not simply use the Methane????? Economics will prevail, it has to.

 

[lowkee]

Re: Hybrid/electric boats.... How long?

I was hoping to avoid the word hydrogen getting into an electric car/boat discussion, so here goes my attempt to get back on a productive task:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle#Criticism

I think the Wall street Journal article put it well:

Ballard Power Systems, a leading developer of hydrogen vehicle technology, pulled out of the Hydrogen vehicle business in late 2007. Research Capital analyst Jon Hykawy concluded that Ballard saw the industry going nowhere and said: "In my view, the hydrogen car was never alive. The problem was never could you build a fuel cell that would consume hydrogen, produce electricity, and fit in a car. The problem was always, can you make hydrogen fuel at a price point that makes any sense to anybody. And the answer to that to date has been no.

 

[Iandayen]

Re: Hybrid/electric boats.... How long?

It's true, there are many catalysts for a fuel cell, it's only that the most common is Hydrogen.

As far as production goes, yes it does take coal or some other type of plant to produce Hydrogen, but it takes that to make fuel also.

The only reason oil pipelines are built are to get crude oil from drilling to the factory. You don't need to do that with Hydrogen, you won't have to build a nationwide Hydrogen piping system ever. All you need to make hydrogen is electricity, water and since pure water doesn't conduct electricity you need an acid catalyst.

3600 PSI and you are having safety issues?

They can easily do 5,000 psi in a hydrogen cylinder safely. The only reason they are going for 10,000 is the D.O.E. is targeting a 300 mile range on a tank of hydrogen.

Here is a great website that goes over what the current technology allows for storage of hydrogen, the different storage types being tested and what they are working toward and what the standards are that have to be met.

http://overpotential.blogspot.com/2005/08/current-status-of-hydrogen-storage.html

 

[fabrimacator21]

Re: Hybrid/electric boats.... How long?

QC....

Braking is not the only way to get electricity.

A couple of "flapper" wheels, sort of like turbines might work on the bottom of the boat.

Also unless you know the weights of the motor's and generators that would/could be used compared to regular IC engines I think your jumping to conclusion. This is a very new technology especially in boats. It may show up sooner then you think. All it takes is one company to come out with 1 successful setup and everyone will jump on the bandwagon.

The boat in the link on the first page looks like it COULD be promising.

A diesel generator would be the ticket. Low rpms and TONS of tq to spin a beefy alternatory.


Some one mentioned giant 2 stroke diesels so......

http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/

how does 108,920 hp at 102 rpm and 5,608,312 ft lbs at 102rpm sound?

 

[QC]

Re: Hybrid/electric boats.... How long?

A couple of "flapper" wheels, sort of like turbines might work on the bottom of the boat.

You wouldn't get any more charge than the drag on the wheels so fuel out, energy in. No free lunch, if it did produce more energy than the associated drag that would be akin to perpetual motion . . . Can't happen

I am usually pretty open minded, but there are no miracles that eliminate thermodynamic principles yet . . . Oh, I mentioned the big two strokes, again when money counts Internal Combustion Engines and mechanical wins out . . . Even Big rigs trucks are getting about a 7% fuel savings from hybrid, but it is regenerative braking that is the benefit. Wasted heat that would normally go into the brake rotors or drums . . . A diesel Golf will blow doors on a Civic Hybrid for pure fuel efficiency. Plug in Hybrids (PHEVs) are next and then you get the benefit of the efficiency from mega gas fired plants, Nukes etc. But the car isn't the saver, the power plant is . . .