2001 Yamaha 150 HPDI Dies

[Bigredd]

I purchased a 2001 Century 2100 with a '01 Yamaha 150 HPDI.
Through the postings on this forum I have been able to correct all the fuel pressure issues.
MY current problem is that the engine dies after running about one minute. Make no difference on throttle application, in gear, out of gear, with earmuffs, in the water. All operating conditions have the same result - dies, just like ignition is shut off.

Here is what I have done: ALL fuel filters, all the fuel lines from tank to engine, new spark plugs. I have tested all the sensors with a sensor simulator. I have tested the thermostats (opens at 125), tested the overheat sensors (ok).

The engine will run fine for a few moments, then it will cut off, catch itself to run again, cut out, run again and then finally die. Seems like something electronic is failing when it warms up. The cut off is too clean to be fuel related.

I am an ASE Master Certified Auto Mechanic. 40+ years of experience. I understand the theory of fuel injection and management.

Even though electronic failures are rare on this engine, is there any one thing that will cause this kind of shut down? How does the ECM manage timing of the spark and injectors? Just the crank sensor at the flywheel?

Model# Z150TXRA

Frustrated now...

 

[Bigredd]

Re: 2001 Yamaha 150 HPDI Dies

Addendum to performance. I just unplugged the crank sensor, engine idles at 1900 and smooth. It did die once.

One other symptom is that when the engine is started, it hunts idle. Throttle up in neutral and back to idle, still hunts for idle. It will eventually smooth out.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: 2001 Yamaha 150 HPDI Dies

have you tested the hp fuel rail at the failure RPM.
loss of high pressure,625PSI, can and will shut it off just like the switch cuts it off.
apperantly you DONT understand 2 stroke high pressure direct injection.
you can also check injector driver voltage but only after testing fuel pressure.
main timing determanite cold is inputs from TPS and ECT.
after warm up its CPS and TPS.
unplug any sensor,except the O2, and engine timing will be locked at 7*BTDC engine will idle high and spark occurs on all 6 and depending on the sensor top speed may or may not be reached.
that engine in nuetral idles on 4 cylinders,raise the throttle above 1500 and it drops two MORE.
O2 sensor output is used for minor fuel corrections below 1500 RPM and not used above it.
check the spark plug secondary voltage with your Kv tester, all should be about 10-15KV with the engine in gear.
we did have some injector driver issues from the single driver engines before 2004.
that engine uses a 12V TCI ign system as well.
can be tested easily.
a main relay failure will shut the engine down as well.
have you tried using the laptop on it?

 

[Bigredd]

Re: 2001 Yamaha 150 HPDI Dies

You are right. I don't understand all I know about 2 stroke HPDI. That's why am here. Now that we have the niceties out of the way...

Failure occurs at any rpm. I monitored the high fuel pressure sensor voltage with no chane in reading prior to stall. I have not performed a mechanical pressure test. Fuel pressure out of VST holds steady at 50 psi.

I'll get my scope from the shop on Sunday and check KV's. I also have a high pressure guage that I believe I can connect to the high pressure pump.

I understand the theory of dropping cylinders in neutral. Keeps engine from over revving. My curiosity about the timing is, what is the #1 referrece that the ECM uses to determine timing?

I don't have the software or the interface to hook up my laptop. Is there a way to get the trouble codes with a home built tester? Test light rig?

I am just trying to elimate all possibilites prior to taking the big plunge.
Thanks for your help.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: 2001 Yamaha 150 HPDI Dies

no worries.
I am a yamaha master tech with close to 40 years experince,about 20 of the last being a marine tech.
ign timing and injector timing are controled by the 6 fixed pulser coils and the inner flywheel magnent.
pulsers are fixed at 7* BTDC
from there ign and fuel injection timing are modified a bit.
the pulser coils control injector firing,each injector fires based on a signal,#1 pulser fires #1 cylinder and the next injector in the firing order.
if the voltage on the HP rail sensor is correct,p-b ,2.8 to 3.2V and the orange is a 5 volt reference the high pressure is ok.
there is no provision to monitor the rail with a guage.
and at 625 PSI leaks could be nasty.
with a peak reading meter,not a standard DVM or an RMS, injector driver voltage should stay 60 to 70 V.
I try to use an analog meter as its quicker at detecting flaws than a digital.
injector driver issues are tough to find as there is no test for the driver.
even the injector test on the laptop uses different internal circuitry than when running.
remember, the ign coils must have 12V,the ground path is done by a transistor switch in the ecu,the injector driver must have 12V that gets stepped up to above 60v.
al the sensors using 3 wires have a 5V reference.
some two wire sensors have a 5v reference.
you can unplug anysensor you wish and the engine will run.
ign timing will be fixed,fuel may become fixed. but it wont shut off due to a sensor failure.
however an "inrange" failure wont set a code and may produce drivability issues.
remember the only thing the map sensor does is check baro pressure at key on power.
after that unlike car engines its not used for engine load determinates.
thats a function of the CPS and the TPS.
any yellow/red wire should have 12V anytime the key is on.
all yellows should as well.
do you have the yamaha manual yet, very nice color wireing digrams in it.

 

[Bigredd]

Re: 2001 Yamaha 150 HPDI Dies

Yes, I purchased the manual on the internet. The wiring diagram is unique. to say the least.

As I said before, I have replaced all the filters and fuel lines from the tank to the injector pump. I still get air in the water separator on the port side of the engine.

I already figured most of what you talked about on the sensor voltages. You did answer one concern as to whether a sensor would shut it down. Thanks on that one.

I am open to any suggestions on testing the IDM. WHere the best place to test at.

Fixin to head out on a Motorcycle ride. I'll check back tomorrow.

Thanks Again!

 

[Bigredd]

Re: 2001 Yamaha 150 HPDI Dies

SUNDAY EVENING UPDATE:
I readjusted the TPS per instruction you gave on another thread to get the idle under control.
Tested the Injection pressure sensor again. It ranges from 2.9v at idle to 3.2v at 1800 in neutral.
Rechecked my medium pressure, still good at 50psi.
Resealed the water separator on port side of engine, still gets air in it. I am going to replace the primer bulb and reseal the new racor filter on Monday evening. It is a new filter, has maybe 3 hours run time on it.
Checked coil pulse and injector pulse using an oscilliscope where I could record and watch for drop outs.

Here's the kicker, once I got the idle stabalized, the engine never faltered. Have not put it in the water yet. I want to eliminate the air issue before I water test.
I will update again on Monday evening.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: 2001 Yamaha 150 HPDI Dies

quit chasing that ghost.
that fuel filter on the port side is on the suction side of the pump,its normal for it to stay about half full even at WOT.
which post was it and are you sure it was for the 2.6L based HPDI and not an ox66 motor?

 

[Bigredd]

Re: 2001 Yamaha 150 HPDI Dies

Not sure which thread now. However, my adjustment procedure was as follows. Throttle plate linkage disconnected, throttle plate fully closed and TPS adjusted to .49v, Spec I remember to be .5 v +/- .02v.

Thanks about the ghost info. Unless I need to change the TPS and it is not raining this evening, I will water test the engine.

I hate buying another mans project....

 

[Bigredd]

Re: 2001 Yamaha 150 HPDI Dies

Sorry Rodbolt, Hurricane Alex has all the boat ramps flooded around here. I have not been able to water test this engine yet. I will post my results as soon as I get it done.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: 2001 Yamaha 150 HPDI Dies

throttle plates closed and the shutters all synched,now check the oil pump link rod,now set the TPS at .5V,then open the shutters with the shutter adjusting screw to .62V.
your done.

 

[pine island fred]

Re: 2001 Yamaha 150 HPDI Dies

Hope everyone is getting all of this. Thats why I have a 50 with carbs still in the box. RODBOLT, might be looking for some company at the BLUE CRAB around the 14 th. regards FRED ( the vacuum tube man)

 

[Bigredd]

Re: 2001 Yamaha 150 HPDI Dies

Totally frustrated now. I have dotted all the "i's", crossed all the "t's". The engine seems to run ok here in the driveway with earmuffs on it. I backed it into the water to run it under load.

Starts easy, idle good, put it in gear, throttle up, 10 seconds later dies. Restarts imediately, in gear, throttle up, die. I am able to repeat this as many times as I want. The dying symtoms are very similar to fuel starve.

Where can I get the software and interface to hook up my laptop? I want to evaluate the cost of continuing myself or paying the Unknown Yamaha Tech $150 per hour to tell me something that I should have been able to do myself.

I'm no dummy, but I might as well be without the proper diagnostic tools.

Brian Harbour
dba: Bayou Auto & Marine Service
Dickinson, Texas 77539

 

[rodbolt]

Re: 2001 Yamaha 150 HPDI Dies

you have to order the software and cable through a yamaha dealer from K and l tools.
can you check injector driver voltage? should have about 85 volts.

 

[scotakns]

Re: 2001 Yamaha 150 HPDI Dies

I sent you a PM

 

[Bigredd]

Re: 2001 Yamaha 150 HPDI Dies

OK Rodbolt, I can access the wires. I have the wiring diagram printed off. Which wire should have the 85 volts?

 

[rodbolt]

Re: 2001 Yamaha 150 HPDI Dies

acrossed the injectors when they fire.

 

[Bigredd]

Re: 2001 Yamaha 150 HPDI Dies

Thanks, I will check that this evening after work.