Ethanol Possible Benefit

[Prophammer]

A possible benefit of ethanol occurred to me recently, doe anyone agree? Here it is: ethanol readily mixes with water, right? So since I'm forced to buy gas with ethanol - I gather the sloshing back and forth of the gas on my boat will completely mix any small amount of water in the tank with the ethanol gas - I have a modern outboard designed for 87 octane with 10% ethanol , so , a small amount of water will either be caught by the filter or burned through without any ill effects, correct? Ethanol free gas , on the other hand , will not mix with water, it will gather the water on the bottom of the tank , correct?
So with ethanol free gas I'm just as likely or maybe even more likely to accumulate a troublesome amount of water (assuming I'm going from gas station straight to the water with no fuel stabilizer -not storing the boat over season) with this I'm saying ethanol might have the benefit of keeping the blob bubble off the bottom of the tank. I know this is an un-popular statement, but does anyone agree?

 

[Blind Date]

[h=3]Mercury Marine agrees with you:


Mercury Debunks More Ethanol Myths[/h]
Mercury Marine, the world's largest manufacturer of marine engines, recently held a webinar to debunk some of its own myths about ethanol. I attended with interest. The first myth was that there are fuel additives that can prevent all issues associated with ethanol-blended gasoline. For example, no fuel additive can prevent ethanol from acting like a solvent. The second myth was that fuel additives can make stale or phase-separated fuel useable. "Fuel cannot be rejuvenated," Mercury determined, and they noted that it's a myth that ethanol-blended fuels are bad and should be avoided. Here are some quotes from the Mercury Marine webinar.

• "There is no active transfer mechanism for ethanol molecules to reach out and 'grab' water molecules out of the air. Under normal storage conditions, even in a vented fuel tank, it just does not happen at a level or rate that is relevant."
• "Major multi-billion dollar companies with enormous resources have improved gasoline additives but there have been no recent breakthroughs involving 'magical technology.' Claims made by companies about 'space-age,' 'revolutionary,' or special proprietary technology should be looked at with a high degree of suspicion."
• "E10 Ethanol absolutely IS an acceptable fuel for everyday use."
• "E15 Ethanol absolutely IS NOT an acceptable fuel."
• "After the transition period from E0, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the system 'dry.'"
• "Don't immediately assume E10 is the problem."

Bob Adriance

 

[dingbat]

I totally agree.
Best and cheapest fuel system cleaner and dryer on the market.

Get a kick when people run ethanol free gas then recommend using an alcohol based additive (dry gas) for moisture problems.

 

[Texasmark]

Thank you sir. Now I have 3 problems that keep this from making me feel cozy with E10. I have 2 Mercury engines built for the 2002 market; both the same type 2 stroke one 90 hp 3 cyl and the other 115 4 cyl same design, both using built in fuel tanks.

One was used with E10 and one used with gasoline. At 10 years, of age, the E10 engine started loosing fuel lines internal to the engine and fuel supply lines. At 17 years of age the gasoline engine had clean (running a cotton swab inside the fuel line on a regular internal fuel filter change to see the condition) fuel lines internally, and the fuel supply like had no tan, hard coating on the inside....both the same OEM gray hose. On my small non-marine engines I don't have fuel line failures with gasoline.

Around here, and that is my only reference, If you want to buy gasoline, you had to find stations adjacent to lakes....where boats are used, and sit for long periods idle, with built in fuel tanks, containing stagnant fuel if seldom used.

Mercury marine sells a 1-2-3 set of fuel treatments. Small engine mfgrs. are now adding fuel stabilizers to their 2 stroke oil that "has to be used" to lubricate 2 stroke engines, and they are used everywhere, not necessarily near water meaning that E10 is the fuel, and if they are already selling the oil anyway, where would be the financial advantage in adding stabilizers if they didn't have merit and make their engines more in demand than their competitors?

My P/U is E85 certified and I have no idea as to what that means. I have no problems with it or a Honda Element, not flex fuel certified and only occasionally add things to the fuel. Only thing I can say about them is that they get used frequently enough and the fuel doesn't have time to "phase separate", if it does that and whatever that means.

Back in 1972 I had an 18 gallon built in tank in a boat and got to worrying about water in the fuel for some reason...running gasoline available at the time. So, I buy something sold to get any accumulated water out of your fuel tank and put it in. Sometime later I am running along at a good clip and my engine abruptly stops. Troubleshooting finds a milky, gooey, sludge buildup at the fuel line connection to the engine....with the connector removed and pumping the priming bulb, I was able to discharge the goo, obtaining fresh gasoline, reinstalling everything and continuing on my way.

So there I had water problems with gasoline. Who knows. You have folks that use and folks that don't. Folks that swear by either way. Would be nice if it were clean cut........but everybody's engines aren't the same nor function under the same set of conditions.......so how could one expect it to be a simple answer. Apparently there isn't so we have "Snake Oil" users (like me) and non-users.

 

[Prophammer]

I have had stale gas issues here and there, and get mad at myself for not doing something quicker, I don''t blame it on ethanol, I blame it on old gas evaporating the best part of the gas into the air and leaving too high of percent of ethanol in the tank to do the job

 

[JimS123]

This is one of the most highly debated topics. Yes it has tremendous benefits, just like the OP suggested. Some people swear by it and some swear at it. Could it be that the successful ones garage their boats and keep them dry, while the ones with the goop leave them outside uncovered in the snow? I dunno!

I personally have a 40 year old car and a 36 year old boat and per their Owner's Manuals they were designed for leaded or unleaded gas.....LOL. Obviously, E10 wasn't invented back then. In both cases they have both run on E10 for as long as it was available and both have clean burning engines with good mileage. No mods at all.

Just one thing to keep in mind.....
Don't believe what the signs on the pump say. Tests have shown that a certain percentage of E0 DOES have ethylene in it. And a certain percentage of E10 has 0, or even up to 15%. Bottom line is that you really don't know what you're getting when you buy gas at the marina.

 

[Watermann]

Yeah well in my area my boats have months of winter storage so I'd rather not have this issue. No thanks.

Phase Separation describes what happens to gasoline containing Ethanol when water is present. When gasoline containing even small amounts of Ethanol comes in contact with water, the Ethanol will pick-up and absorb some or all of that water. When it reaches a saturation point the Ethanol and water will Phase Separate, actually coming out of solution and forming two or three distinct layers in the tank.

 

[JimS123]

Yeah well in my area my boats have months of winter storage so I'd rather not have this issue. No thanks.

Phase Separation describes what happens to gasoline containing Ethanol when water is present. When gasoline containing even small amounts of Ethanol comes in contact with water, the Ethanol will pick-up and absorb some or all of that water. When it reaches a saturation point the Ethanol and water will Phase Separate, actually coming out of solution and forming two or three distinct layers in the tank.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. In fact, you have just described the benefit of ethanol.

If you have E10 and you get a little winter condensation, you're good to go. If you have E0 and you get a little winter condensation, you have 100% immediate phase separation and you need to drain the tank.

If you have a roof leak or something and you get a LOT of winter "condensation", you're screwed no matter what you have in the tank.

 

[Prophammer]

. When it reaches a saturation point the Ethanol and water will Phase Separate, actually coming out of solution and forming two or three distinct layers in the tank.[/B]

What is the saturation point of 87 octane 10% ethanol ? How much water could safely be absorbed in a 20 gallon tank?

 

[Scott Danforth]

you get phase separation at low temps with E10 too. part of the SAE protocol for testing small engine plastic fuel tanks is to freeze the tank for two weeks to promote phase separation and then to impact test the fuel tank.

 

[dingbat]

What is the saturation point of 87 octane 10% ethanol ? How much water could safely be absorbed in a 20 gallon tank?

At what temperature?

Up to 0.5% by volume at 70 degrees F

Keep in mind this is fuel temp, not air temp. The latent heat of 20 gallons of fuel will keep the fuel temp rather constant over short duration air temperature changes.

 

[dingbat]

[https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-09/documents/waterphs.pdf

Another way water can enter gasoline is through absorption from the air. Water, in the form of water vapor, can dissolve in gasoline. The more humid the air, the faster the water vapor will dissolve in the gasoline. Due to chemical equilibrium, however, assuming a constant temperature, phase separation will never occur if the only source of water is from the air. Only enough water to saturate the fuel can enter the system, and no more. Water vapor, however, dissolves in gasoline very slowly, even at very high humidity. For example, at a constant temperature of 100 degrees F and relative humidity of 100%, it would take well over 200 days to saturate one gallon of gasoline in an open gasoline can (assuming the only source of water is water vapor from the air). Water absorption from the air is far slower at lower temperatures and humidities. (At a temperature of 70 degrees and relative humidity of 70%, it would take over two years to saturate one gallon of conventional gasoline in the same gasoline can.) Again, oxygenated gasolines can hold more water than conventional gasoline, and would therefore take much longer to saturate with water.

 

[Texasmark]

I totally agree.
Best and cheapest fuel system cleaner and dryer on the market.

Get a kick when people run ethanol free gas then recommend using an alcohol based additive (dry gas) for moisture problems.

Yepper, that's the problem I have with my using Sea Foam...Alcohol, Naptha, light mineral oil! But I still use it.....dumbass me......maybe! It works in spite of the alcohol, especially in my outboards.

 

[racerone]

Another bigger problem is that farmers who used to grow BARLEY and WHEAT are now growing corn for more profit.------So you may save $10 a week on fuel cost and then have to pay more for BREAD and BEER.-----Also in my area , gasoline is subject to taxes to maintain the roads they say.------So how do you collect these taxes from those folks who recharge their batteries for electric vehicles at home.-------Government just gets more complicated and soaks up more hard earned coins everyday.

 

[Watermann]

Another bigger problem is that farmers who used to grow BARLEY and WHEAT are now growing corn for more profit.------So you may save $10 a week on fuel cost and then have to pay more for BREAD and BEER.

That's because we the tax payers have been subsidizing ethanol production for 30 years with no end in sight since they're now exporting it.

 

[GA_Boater]

No politics, Guys.

Why we have ethanol laced fuel is not the reason behind the discussion. It's what will you do now that we have it and we've had it for a while now.

 

[Prophammer]

I don't even want to bring up my boat taxes, that's too grievous to mention !!!! Thank You All - I think I understand the pros and cons of ethanol now !!!

 

[JimS123]

Guys, It's what will you do now that we have it and we've had it for a while now.

Follow Mercury Marine's recommendations, and...

Keep the tank full.
Keep the boat's bilge dry.
Use Stabilizer in the off season.
Keep the gas cap on tight and keep the vent clear.
Keep the boat covered and dry.
If its an old clunker replace the fuel lines with alcohol resistant ones.

 

[Prophammer]

Follow Mercury Marine's recommendations, and...

Keep the tank full.
Keep the boat's bilge dry.
Use Stabilizer in the off season.
Keep the gas cap on tight and keep the vent clear.
Keep the boat covered and dry.
If its an old clunker replace the fuel lines with alcohol resistant ones.

Thank you I will do it !

 

[DeepCMark58A]

That's because we the tax payers have been subsidizing ethanol production for 30 years with no end in sight since they're now exporting it.

Is anything that needs to be subsidized really such a good idea?