strength test between solder and crimp connections

[ron7000]

after reading the two threads here about crimp connections vs. solder connections, I had to do a little test. <br /><br />There was reference to the American Boat & Yacht Council Standards for Boats that stated, "Solder shall not be the sole means of the mechanical connection in any circuit. Exception: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor (E9.16.K8)"<br />I think there was also references made to USCG regs about the subject, but there seemed to be a large consensus of people here that were against solder connections, for the wrong reasons.<br /><br />So I did a comparison with standard 14-gauge wire, copper stranded, not sure how many strands at what diameter per strand, with a blue rubber type insulation. The connectors used were GB ring terminals, which can be purchased from any hardware/electrical store (i.e. home depot). I did not use anchor terminals.<br /><br />Using about 8 inches of wire, a ring terminal was crimped onto each end. One ring terminal was secured to my garage door track on the ceiling with a #8 screw. The other end I slowly put my weight on, I'd estimate maybe 30-40 lbs of force. The wire slid right out of the ring terminal, as expected.<br /><br />Same senario, but with ring terminals soldered on each end, using 96% tin %4 silver solder from radio shack, and paste flux. I used a propane torch to heat the ring terminal to apply the solder, only because it was easier and faster, and I didn't feel like hunting for my soldering iron. This time, it took about half or more of my body weight, around 100+ lbs, before the wire broke after where it was soldered. The solder joint did not let go, the wire about an inch away from that gave. I also bent the #8 screw holding the ring terminal.<br /><br />Next was to try a 62/36/2 radio shack solder (2% silver, 36% lead). Maybe the 4% stuff was unfair. Nope, same as before. Slighty bent the screw holding the terminal and broke the wire, not the solder joint.<br /><br />If anyone has any doubts, I invite you to play around with this in your spare time. I will hopefully post pics tomorrow of how the connections broke. My intention is not to start a war over the subject, only point out that information in printed texts that everyone is supposed to abide by is not always correct, nor is it always the best way to do something. I know there are what-ifs and caveats, post them if you like.

 

[fatpratt1996]

Re: strength test between solder and crimp connections

Cool, kind of like your very own mythbusters episode

 

[BillP]

Re: strength test between solder and crimp connections

ron7000,<br />No offense intended, but I don't think the ABYC recommendations are about how much pull the joint can take. I believe they say solder can be used with a crimp...but a solder only connection isn't recommended. Time and wear elements are part of the picture. If memory serves right the USCG complained that solder work hardened the wire where it exits the terminal and makes it more prone to failure than crimps...which is probably the reason double crimps are specified and include crimping the wire covering. Solder also introduces more chance of electrolysis on the connection...a known long term fact in semiconductor mfg QC. I don't know which is less noble between the silver and copper connector but the result could be loss of bond and conductivity on the long term. Constant heating and cooling of terminals is an issue too. Neither the ABYC or USCG make these recommendations from one or two data sources. I believe they know what works best...just my humble opinion though.

 

[waterone1@aol.com]

Re: strength test between solder and crimp connections

You sure can tell when winter is here. As an electrical engineer (yes, degree in that subject) and an ABYC certified technician(electrical)......crimp and solder is better than just crimp....I refuse to do any more debates. For Gods sake....let it be.

 

[crab bait]

Re: strength test between solder and crimp connections

how in the cottonpickin' world can solder atribrute to electrolysis..??<br /><br />solder makes everthing AS ONE..!!<br /><br />electrolysis can not happen.. <br /><br />just a crimp ,, double or not,, well an can GREEN UP in no time.. because it's just a crimp an no solder to make it as one componet..

 

[waterone1@aol.com]

Re: strength test between solder and crimp connections

We have all posted our expertise and research, let it be.....if anyone thinks that bending a piece of metal around a wire is better than soldering.....let them do it on their boat.

 

[18rabbit]

Re: strength test between solder and crimp connections

Originally posted by crab bait:<br /> how in the cottonpickin' world can solder atribrute to electrolysis..?? ...solder makes everthing AS ONE..!!

It does but only from a continuity stand point…moving electrons from point a to point b. There are always caveats when you introduce dissimilar materials as conductors. For efficiency, the fewer the materials, the better. With marine electronics it doesn’t matter, we have enough juice to get done what we need to. When scaled down to device physics (microelectronics … integrated circuits) it becomes extremely important. Diodes, capacitors, gates (transistors) are all achieved by the effects of the proximity of conductive dissimilar materials.<br /><br />Far more important that the use of dissimilar conductors or if you solder (or not) is the prevention of corrosion…the granddaddy of nature’s insulators.

 

[ron7000]

Re: strength test between solder and crimp connections

the more I research into this, the more I am convinced things like USCG regs, the ABYC, and whatever other governing agencies, exist only to give people job security and to make money- as in the case of when the word marine is placed on an item it ALWAYS cost more. You'll also notice Ancor says they endorse and strongly recommend USCG and ABYC standards. Well of course, it markets their product. They have the boating community duped well.<br /><br />From ancor, connectors and wire:<br /> http://www.ancorproducts.com/Products/Home.html <br /><br />

ANCOR Marine Grade™ terminals differ from "automotive" terminals by being designed specifically for the harsh marine environment... Highest Grade electrolytic copper, tin plated for greatest corrosion resistance and least power loss Insulation grip connectors have an additional brass sleeve that provides...

ANCOR’s primary Boat Cable is made to American Wire Gauge standards which means up to 12% more tinned copper conductors than SAE wire...Tinned copper stranding for maximum protection against corrosion and electrolysis

From West Marine product listing:<br />Ordinary automotive-type wire can suffer a loss of conductivity after a few months in the marine environment, caused by corrosion and/or vibration. Premium Ancor wire will provide a lasting solution for your sophisticated marine electronics and instruments to operate at peak potential.

Here's the interesting parts.<br /><br />You guys are worried about electrolysis from soldering. Solder in most cases is either 60/40% tin/lead or 96/4% tin/silver. Solder is primarily tin, yet Ancor uses "Tinned copper stranding (wire) for maximum protection against corrosion and electrolysis" along with tinned copper connectors.<br /><br />Some simple things to remember next time you read advertisements or product literature of so called "marine-grade" electrical products. All of this info is easily attainable via internet from reputable sources, and related books & literature.<br /><br />

• <br />
• 60/40 tin-lead solder, the most common, has historically been known for it's corrosion resistance.<br />
• adding silver to solder, such as 96/4 tin-silver, helps to increase joint strength and increases melting temperature; is also harder to use than 60/40.<br />
• silver is very noble, has good corrosion resistance although will tarnish, but has the highest electrical conductivity<br />
• For electrical conductivity, silver is #1, copper #2, and gold #3. Copper is always used because of it's low cost & strength compared to gold and silver for wiring and connectors.<br />
• Aluminum is much less conductive, but the difference is insigificant in a 12-volt system- 1/1000 of an ohm equals 12 millivolts. Problem with aluminum is it oxides, and aluminum always has an outter oxide layer which requires the use of special fluxes and/or equipment when soldering & welding. It is the oxidation of aluminum which causes electrical resistance and poor continuity.<br />
• All wire is copper, with a rubber or vinyl, sometimes ptfe, insulation.<br />
• Tin is less conductive than copper; remember this when something is advertised to be more conductive when tinned. It is not, it is "supposed to be" more corrosion resistant. Would a length of Ancor wire have more voltage drop than the same length of copper wire? And does that mean you would need a larger gauge of ancor wire?<br />
• In regards to West Marine quote, OEM boat wire is just PVC insulated, stranded copper wire. Therefore, it is not any different than automotive SAE wire. So is West Marine/Ancor saying that all new boats are going to have failing electrical systems after a few months? Or is their product advertisement ethically questionable?<br />
• Most ring terminal connectors, such as the ones you can buy at home depot, are tinned copper. Cut or wire brush one and you will see.<br />

<br /><br /><br />Galvanic Series in Seawater<br />

Magnesium<br />Zinc<br />Aluminum (pure) <br />Cadmium<br />Aluminum alloys<br />Mild Steel and Iron<br />Un-passivated Stainless Steels<br />Lead-Tin Solders<br />Lead<br />Tin<br />Un-passivated Nickel Alloys<br />Brass<br />Copper<br />Bronze<br />Silver Solder<br />Passivated Nickel Alloys<br />Passivated Stainless Steels<br />Silver<br />Titanium<br />Graphite<br />Gold<br />Platinum

 

[jlinder]

Re: strength test between solder and crimp connections

ron7000,<br /><br />Question about your test: how did you crimp the connector?<br /><br />I have seen people use pliers to do a crimp and end up with a horrible connection - even seen the wire just fall out of the crimp this way.<br /><br />Using a crimp tool, or better yet a racheting crimp tool is the way to go. Not too expensive and works well.<br /><br />A solder joint is easy to do incorrectly (heat the solder instead of the wire, etc). A crimp using the correct tools takes less expertise. At commercial building construction sites you will see a lot of electrical work using racheting crimp tools. Once the crimp is started, they will not release until crimped all the way. Hard to do incorrectly.<br /><br />Crimps to hold structual support wires are all over the place. If crimp did not hold, it would not be used.<br /><br />My humble $.02

 

[BillP]

Re: strength test between solder and crimp connections

...what-ifs and caveats, post them if you like. <br /><br /> <br />You guys are way over reacting to the electrolysis deal...but corrosion and electrolysis are hand in hand. Look at the long term not short. Edited here for a senior moment. Terminals alone will show little corrosion without wires attached or electricity going through it. The reason I used that example was to point out there are other factors to consider than pull strength. Lugs can get loose after repeated heating and cooling. Wires flop around and work harden. For whatever reason I can't imagine, the USCG or ABYC (I can't remember which) is concerned about solder connections coming loose during fires etc, etc, etc. but I take their word for it. That's where the AYBC and USCG have the expertise. <br /><br />HomeDepot wires don't have brass sleeves and double crimps do they? So that comparison isn't apples for apples with Ancor is it? I don't care what WEST Marine says about OEM boat wire...maybe they are right and maybe they are wrong. I do know one thing, any blanket statement saying all OEM boats use SAE wire is a very bogus statement.<br /><br />I'm only "pro" to whatever the professional boating industry says because they have more data to make decisions with...that's my opinion and nobody has to agree or debate. It doesn't matter who is right and I don't really care. I thought we were sharing info and opinions here.

 

[ron7000]

Re: strength test between solder and crimp connections

the crimper I used was one I purchased from an auto store years ago. It's a $10 one, does spark plug wire connectors, strips 20-10 gauge along with crimping red,blue,yellow crimp connectors. I've never had a problem with it crimping, it's always done a good job.<br /><br />With the crimp connection I did for the comparison, it held up perfectly well. I have nothing negative to say about crimp connections in general. My whole point was to show that a solder connection was stronger.<br /><br />Bill, I will admit that using a good ratchet crimper instead and an ancor terminal would give a stronger connection. So in that respect my test wasn't necessarily fair. But would a good crimp connection on an ancor terminal hold until the wire breaks like my solder connection did? If it does, then I have no problems rewording this topic to a solder connection is equal in strength to a crimp connection I'm just sharing info too. If it wasn't winter, I'd be skiing and too busy to argue, and everybody could say whatever they like about crimps and solder. Only problem I had was a few things were stated that were incorrect, and it seemed like everyone started getting behind those statements. Last thing I'd want to see here are you guys championing a bunch of fallacies instead of being factual.

 

[ron7000]

Re: strength test between solder and crimp connections

finally got the pic to link, hopefully it'll stay active.<br />Notice I did not crimp the terminals, I just slid the wire in, heated and soldered.<br />The one screw I used to hold the wire, as you can see there was considerable<br />weight before the wire gave.<br />One pair of connectors had 60/40 solder, the other 96/4 tin/silver.<br /><br />

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<br /><br />

 

[18rabbit]

Re: strength test between solder and crimp connections

I would not use the crimp you used in your testing. It is not suitable for marine applications, neither are the connectors.<br /><br />There is no way I am going to invest my time into redoing a wiring job knowing I will be returning later to maintain. It needs to be done right the first time and it needs to stand the test of time over the long haul. I’m one of those detail oriented nuts that will use a knife to shave off the little plastic bur left on the nylon insulating sleeve of a connector during the manufacturing process. The bur doesn’t hurt anything but knowing it’s there is enough to drive me nuts.<br /><br />Anyone that makes anything electrical has potential liability. That potential is what keeps lawyers and independent testing labs in business. No bona fide company is going to market a ring connector without first submitting it to testing, directly or indirectly. Certification of the connector is done only after rigid testing for target applications…including the environment the connector is to be used in. When crimped properly, the connector will sustain the current/voltage capacity of the conductor it is rated for IF you also use the properly sized screw the ring is also rated for. If don’t know but it is possible ‘crimp’ connectors are not approved for soldering…may or may not effect the approved use of the connector, don’t know. If it is approved for soldering, there is a spec that will detail the amount of heat, for how long, with a specific type of solder. I’m guessing the crimp connectors are not approved for soldering because of the nylon insulator…it would melt. <br /><br />Use marine grade products, crimp properly, and there is nothing more you can do to improve the performance of the connector. Nothing.<br /><br />The weak link with a properly crimped connector is not the connector and it is not the crimp; it is the conductor…the wire. If you can pull a wire from a properly crimped connector, the integrity of the conductor becomes in question. The copper strands can anneal and break from the stress. Stressing a substrate can also alter the behavior of electrons, causing increased resistance, aka hot spots…tho I doubt enough heat to matter in our wimpy 12v marine applications. These are the reasons behind a limit to the total number of bends (360 deg) a wire can be pulled through conduit; to avoid stressing the conductors. (see the Nat’l Electric Code).<br /><br />As Bill mentioned, there is no way a single crimped connector can compare to a double crimp. That second crimp grabs the insulator on the wire (the colored plastic coating) and provides a tremendous amount of stress relief for the wire-to-connector contact. Using a double crimp ring connector on AWG 16 wire, I cannot physically pull them apart, tho I yet to hang from one in the garage. <br /><br />And further more, I refuse to discuss this subject with anyone that has only a wimpy 4-year ee degree.

 

[BillP]

Re: strength test between solder and crimp connections

I don't know if it compares to this discussion but several years ago I did some research on zinc poured sockets VS swaged terminals for cable (3/8" 1x19 SS sailboat rigging). I found a study that NASA did and it showed poured sockets the strongest...up to 95% strength of wire. Way higher than mechanical swages which I believe were 80% or so. I can see where a soldered terminal would be more pull resistant.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: strength test between solder and crimp connections

These pics are perfect examples of what crimped connections SHOULD NOT look like and terminals that SHOULD NOT be used in a marine environment. They do however explain why people have a hard time thinking a crimped connection is a good one. Most think you're talking about what is shown in those pics.<br /><br />No offense intended. I think what you did is what most people would have done...

 

[tommays]

Re: strength test between solder and crimp connections

<br /><br />marine terminal and correct tool better place to start for for tests<br />

<br /><br />tommays