New Stuff on Vehicles likes/dislikes

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Admiral
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
6,038
I often mention that my first car was a Mercury Comet with I6 motor, today I have a 2015 Jeep Cherokee with a V6. When I open the hood of my Jeep, there is no room to fit my arm or hand to fix anything. When I had my 1961 Comet, I could actually stand beside the engine inside the engine compartment to change the spark plugs ! Engineers must gave thought that was wasted space and created a bunch of junk to fill that space......
 

Jeff J

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jun 23, 2021
Messages
342
They can be adjusted and have been able to be adjusted for decades. If your dash is lit up to full brightness and your too thick to realize how it affects your eyes at night and don’t adjust it, thats on you.
I previously stated that I run mine dimmed down. There are a lot of people who don’t. You can see all the details of them and the interior of their vehicles when they drive by. They have no clue as to why the dark seems so… dark.
 

Lou C

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 10, 2002
Messages
13,600
I would dread going back to a car without a CANBUS. Cars are WAY more easier to diagnose now.

Boat engines have CANBUS too. I had a bad miss on my 2017 Cobalt. I kinda shotgunned the repair by replacing the 4 coils. Later bought my Rinda scanner. If I had bought the Rinda scanner first, I would have know exactly which coil I needed to replace.

I am fairly recently retired. I also worked for GM for awhile. The tech makes working on your vehicles easier...not harder. My last job was a designer for test equipment for high speed internet protocol testing. We were designing test equipment for vehicles because eventually, all sensor will be on a high speed data bus to reduce the miles of wire in a car. Saves weight and makes design simpler.

My Rivian is the most complex vehicle I have ever owned. It has only 7 modules in it.
I think you have to keep in mind, you have the understanding to troubleshoot and repair these data network systems. The average mechanic of today, does not appear to have that level of knowledge and skill. Just watching both South Main Auto and Pine Hollow Diagnostics on you tube, these guys fix those kinds of problems all the time. I would love to have their level of skill and knowledge and understanding but it takes a lot of time, patience and equipment (scanners) to get there. Yes I have an Autel MS 808 scanner, it has helped me fix a few things, but I feel like I need to go back to school for this stuff, lol. Which, I certainly wouldn't mind doing!
I prefer my old school process of elimination troubleshooting, like the fuel starvation issue I diagnosed on my old boat, with the separate outboard fuel tank test:
boat ran fine on the outboard tank, WOT RPM was now 4800 like it should be, vs 3800-4000 as it was.....
conclusion:
anti siphon valve and/or fuel pick up tube
no scanner would tell me that, lol!
2 things I have learned troubleshooting marine engines....
hard starting/rough running, always check for water in the cyls first....
fuel starvation....hook up the outboard tank first, to rule out the boat's fuel system....
the rest, is similar to old school vehicles we grew up with (well if you're of a certain age)......
 

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bruceb58

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Messages
30,696
I previously stated that I run mine dimmed down. There are a lot of people who don’t. You can see all the details of them and the interior of their vehicles when they drive by. They have no clue as to why the dark seems so… dark.
I own 3 vehicles with LARGE displays. All dim down(or go to a dark background) automatically when the headlights go on.
 

Pmt133

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jan 6, 2022
Messages
1,159
Biggest issue I've seen with scanner data is that people tend to jump to the readings being incorrect... but the scanner is only giving you a glimpse. Its not lying to you or giving you bad readings.. but rather that is what it sees, it's only going to tell you what it gets. And a lot of people I work with can't make the distinction that that something is causing those off readings vs jumping to the conclusion that readings are incorrect and going through a barrage of troubleshooting.

About 5 minutes of diagnostics utilizing that provided data to not just take a blind stab at it but rather focus on what is effecting what isn't correct goes a long, long way. But then again a lot of guys I work with like trying to shove a square peg in a card slot.
 

Jeff J

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jun 23, 2021
Messages
342
I have observed the opposite with people and scanners. They think the scanner tells them exactly what is wrong and if it can’t they will swap sensors and computers before doing anything to actually troubleshoot.

I know of a dealership that tried to charge a guy $5000 for 2 computers and various computer bits because the truck was running rough. One piston had a hole in it. Think about it, that is the experience of a dealership with their line to tech support. No one thought to do a compression check before plugging in computers that cannot be returned. The dealership did eat the cost of ONE unneeded computer.
 

Lou C

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 10, 2002
Messages
13,600
watching South Main Auto and Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics, often the problem with modern electrical/electronic systems is bad ground and broken wires. The scanner can't tell you that directly, it can show communication faults etc.
So the issue is that the technician has to know how the sub-system is supposed to work and follow the flow of current to figure out where the problem is. All Data seems to help a lot with that but it's too expensive for most DIY guys to justify.
This kind of work involves looking at connectors, looking for green corrosion on terminals, looking at wiring harnesses for chafe marks where it has rubbed against a sharp edge and shorted out a wire, etc.
I had an intermittent downstream O2 sensor code (P013, IIRC) and thought I had to replace the original (27 year old) downstream sensor on my 98 Jeep. Turned out it was simply oxidized terminals on the O2 sensor connector, a little contact cleaner and compressed air and no more code.
A few years before that, I had a lazy O2 sensor, this one never set a code but you could see it if you looked at the live data stream. That one required replacing the sensor to cure the performance problem caused by the lazy sensor (which caused the EFI system to over-correct).

Sometimes you can use hot functions to "fix" fault codes. Example, I had an intermittent ABS light on the same 98 Jeep, it would come and go with no rhyme or reason. The code suggested the ABS control unit wasn't passing the start up self test. So just on a hunch I used the hot functions of the Autel scanner to actuate the ABS pump, after that, no more light. My guess, a slightly sticky old ABS unit.

The reasons why I say I am not a fan of CANBUS systems for those who keep their cars a long time and live in a damp climate:
1)corrosion/oxidation, there are many more points of failure, than with old style DC wiring. If you live in a dry climate out west it is totally different here. Bad grounds, connectors with green corrosion, etc.
2) Complexity: take a look at Painless Wiring's brand-new full wiring harnesses for classic cars and Jeeps vs what's in modern cars. There is no comparison in the number of connectors and the complexity of the systems used.
3) parts availability, after 10 years good luck finding new replacement modules and ECMs. The become NLA and you're left with junkyard parts. Sometimes they work sometimes they don't.
So in my opinion with boats especially you're better off with a Mercrusier powered boat with a carb. Modules? Just for the Thunderbolt electronic ignition unless it's even older and has points. Points are easy to change, and to adjust just ground the coil lead, crank it over with a remote starter switch and use your dwell meter to get an accurate setting. Easy. Even on my OMC where many parts are NLA, the only module is for the ESA, and CDI electronics still makes them for both points and electronic ignitions.
Carb rebuild kits are available anywhere, even if a carb has internal corrosion, they can be replaced with a brand-new Holley or Edelbrock either of which is fully supported for parts. Unlike the OEMs habit of making things NLA. Thanks to the classic car aftermarket, I can get any part I need for a Quadrajet carb that hasn't been made in over 30 years. Mechanical fuel pumps, (Carter the OEM manufacturer) can be bought for like $75. Low pressure electric pumps for carb engines are not much more.
 

jlh3rd

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 10, 2017
Messages
843
The scanner isn't the good/bad. It's just a tool. There were diagnostics machines back in the day. (see pic). But you didn't need one. Today you do.
I use/need my bi- directional scanner. My head was the scanner back in the day.
You cannot consistently work on computer cars and not have one.
That's not my big complaint.
My complaint is the difficulty accessing one component due to many other components, unlike yesteryear. Plastics dominate underhood and they don't fair well with time. And it seems as if each fastener has it's own separate way of being released, so they break. Plastic ports, mounting tabs, you name it. The older the car, the more brittle the part.
so keep trading in.
VVT, AFM, cam phasers, cam sensors, crank sensors, knock sensors, cat, evap, etc....all nuisance prone devices that did not exist. A scanner is ok, but I need my bi-directional scanner more and more. Old school doesn't work.
Also, manufacturers are moving toward fee based access to the ecm.
I didn't need that for my '77 Monte.
The comment on corroded connections is spot on. Also, a weak battery can cause multiple codes. The ecm determines what is "weak" to it. Multiple communication, low voltage, no voltage, codes can be set yet the battery can still start the car.
If the battery was weak in my '77, I knew it right away.
 

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Jeff J

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jun 23, 2021
Messages
342
It shouldn’t be legal for manufacturers to force subscriptions to access ECMs. Too many people cannot afford shop rate labor, new vehicles every few years nor the subscriptions just to maintain their daily driver or even a toy. The good life shouldn’t be restricted to the wealthy only.
 

Lou C

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 10, 2002
Messages
13,600
with the old school points ignition and carb, you can still start with a weak battery, not always the case with computer controlled engines because the computer needs a minimum voltage to run.
 

Lou C

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 10, 2002
Messages
13,600
It shouldn’t be legal for manufacturers to force subscriptions to access ECMs. Too many people cannot afford shop rate labor, new vehicles every few years nor the subscriptions just to maintain their daily driver or even a toy. The good life shouldn’t be restricted to the wealthy only.
Right
if you have a 2019 or newer FCA or Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep vehicle, not only do you have to pay Autels renewal fee, but you have to pay Auto Authority to get past FCA's firewall! been there done that!
to me that's restriction of business, not fair!
oh and those lovely connectors don't you just love the Chrysler ones with the fiddly red lock you have to slide sideways to get the connector to come off. I was changing an oil pressure sensor on my 2007 Jeep Hemi and it took more time fiddling with that stupid thing so as to not break it than changing the sensor. And they are used everywhere!
top pic is oil pressure sensor, bottom is the headlamp connector had to fix a bad ground there....
Hemi oil pressure sending unit.jpgWK headlamp ground repair .jpg
to get them to move, I spray them with a bit of silicone spray and work them back n forth they usually don't break that way.
 
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Pmt133

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jan 6, 2022
Messages
1,159
I hate the pay wall... but at the same time looking back, each new vehicle I have had less and less need to get into the ECM to diagnose issues. It's not like I don't drive either, doing nearly 30k a year at this point. I had a thermostat go out. Otherwise its tires brakes and fluids. I also know I screwed myself saying that now. :LOL: I do have access to OE level scan equipment via friends though, so when needed I can get in to everything. And I understand most don't have that.
 

bruceb58

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Messages
30,696
I have observed the opposite with people and scanners. They think the scanner tells them exactly what is wrong and if it can’t they will swap sensors and computers before doing anything to actually troubleshoot.

I know of a dealership that tried to charge a guy $5000 for 2 computers and various computer bits because the truck was running rough. One piston had a hole in it. Think about it, that is the experience of a dealership with their line to tech support. No one thought to do a compression check before plugging in computers that cannot be returned. The dealership did eat the cost of ONE unneeded computer.
Scanners are a tool...just like a wrench. If you don't know how to use both, you better not be working on your car.

On my Lexus I used to own, my scanner software allowed me to bleed the brakes properly. You put the car into brake bleed mode and it told you to do one wheel after another and it opened up all the abs ports for each wheel sequentially.

On another vehicle, it told me I had misfires on a particular cylinder. First thing I did was pull the spark plug on that one cylinder. Spark plug was missing a portion of the ceramic on the tip!

On an outboard I own, I drained the oil at the end of the season and drained around 4 ounces of water before the oil started coming out. I scanned the motor and it had a fault for not getting up to operating temp. Pulled the thermostat and it was stuck open.

I own a diagnostic scanner for both my cars and my boat.
 
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dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
16,773
Biggest issue I've seen with scanner data is that people tend to jump to the readings being incorrect... but the scanner is only giving you a glimpse. Its not lying to you or giving you bad readings.. but rather that is what it sees, it's only going to tell you what it gets. And a lot of people I work with can't make the distinction that that something is causing those off readings vs jumping to the conclusion that readings are incorrect and going through a barrage of troubleshooting.
Buy a computer, plug it in and become an electronics expert over night....lol

I agree.......you can't troubleshot a system without understanding how each of the individual components operates, its interaction with other components, and it's contribution to the system as a whole. Only time and experiance gets you proficent in the process.
 

jlh3rd

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 10, 2017
Messages
843
"I own a diagnostic scanner for both my cars and my boat."

I need one, 2021 Merc 115 outboard, CT.
I googled, nothing showed up.
 

bruceb58

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Messages
30,696
with the old school points ignition and carb, you can still start with a weak battery, not always the case with computer controlled engines because the computer needs a minimum voltage to run.
For awhile, I was going to build an airplane. I was not going to go the carb and points route. I was going to use fuel injection and a modern electronic ignition.
 
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