150 force super frusterated

[gibby12345678]

Every year it's something. I got out to the lake, started my motor, (the pain it is). Everything is going good. Got the kids in the boat while it was warming up. Boats all warmed up running great, kids are in the boat. I start backing up just far enough to get away from the dock, put it in neutral as soon as i start to push the lever forward it dies. I've had this problem before when shifting, not usually a big deal. I try to start the motor and nothing. Not a sign of any kind of hope it will fire again. The problems starting were just that. Warm it fired right up. I got it home, checked the plugs, i have spark on all the plugs. It has good compression, and the plugs are wet. Just for the heck of it i went out and got new plugs, don't matter. I have tried putting gas and oil mix directly in the cylinder after sitting without pumping the bulb. I have also tried the same mix directly into the three carbs, while they were dry from sitting. i thought maybe some water in the float bowls, drained them. Squirted carb cleaner in the carbs. The kill switched was removed the last time i couldn't get it going. At least then i had no spark, which gave me somewhere to start. please help me as i am tired of staring at my boat in the back yard hoping to fish again. The motor has 3 carbs and is 5 cylinder

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 150 force super frusterated

There are two types of ignition systems used on this motor. Prestolite system has Blue coils and Blue CD modules. Thunderbolt has black coils with a switch box and a battery converter box. Which type do you have?

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: 150 force super frusterated

When was the last time you had the carbs apart and cleaned? Also you need to check for spark with a spark gap checker. Not just looking at the plugs while you crank. This method could give you a false reading. Also is this only happening when the motor is warm? Could be a either ignition or fuel delivery..... Need isolate both those system with a spark checker and a proper carb cleaning and adjustments.

 

[gibby12345678]

Re: 150 force super frusterated

Prestolite system with Blue coils and Blue CD modules.

 

[gibby12345678]

Re: 150 force super frusterated

When this all started the motor had just warmed up. Since then it hasn't even tried to kind of fire. I didn't do anything with the carbs because it wouldn't even fire squirting fresh premix directly into the cylinders. I have not checked it with a spark gap tester. I personally have never checked anything with a spark gap tester. Just pull the plug and crank it like you were talking about. How can that give you a false reading? I understand that you can't tell if it has weak spark or not, and that is why i changed the plugs. I do want your help, and the things you are telling me are things that can only help a motor even if it isn't the problem. I just like to know why it could be those issues. I'm looking for a strain of hope that when i turn the key next time, maybe it will at least pop, so i know i am going in the right direction.

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: 150 force super frusterated

Well the things that it could be are 1) Compression, 2) Spark, and 3) Fuel. You stated that you have compression.

As to the compression, it always need to be checked first. It is the easiest thing to check for. These motors are known for throwing a ring. A design flaw and manufacturing flaw. The desing flaw is the high angle top ring design, and the manufacturing flaw is they some times did not put a chamfer on the port openings. Rings sometimes caught on the port openings and caused a ring failure. Mine did this to me scoring a cylinder.

The spark, even though the spark passes between the tip and the electrode does not mean you have adaquate spark. A spark gap checker makes the spark jump a predetermined (called out distance in the factory service manual) gap. If it does not "jump" or is a very weak spark, normal is a bright blue lighting bolt, then the you continue the ignition testing sequence. A spark gap checker is cheap and can be bought from most auto stores for around $10. It is only a single place unit. but it will give you the proper reading.

The fuel system is self explanitory. But if have the right compression and spark then fuel could be off on metering. If you want to check this I like to use starting fluid. If it runs on starting fluid but not only the carbs then you have a carb problem.

Need to complete these simple and cheap test before going any further in the fixing mode. These are great motors, and run great. They just need some regular maintence to keep running.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: 150 force super frusterated

Here are some trouble-shooting steps.

http://www.outboardignition.com/page6.asp

Double check all of your ground connections from the coils to the coil mounting plate. Check the ground connection between the coil mounting plate and the engine block. If everything checks out, test the stator resistance per the trouble-shooting steps.

 

[gibby12345678]

Re: 150 force super frusterated

k, going to take the carb off and clean and tune it tommorrow. I am going to check the compression again, and then i am going to get a spark plug gap tester and see if i can get it going again. I already checked for loose and corroded grounds. If all goes well i have a friend coming over tomorrow to check all the electrical stuff. I don't have or know how to read the hand held meters. Thanks for all your help. I at least feel i have some hope. I also heard from a guy in town that has a force that his carbs need cleaned almost every year. Sounds identical to what is happening with mine. Once again i appreciate the help. keep your fingers crossed

 

[Robert D]

Re: 150 force super frusterated

Fuel mixture. That's what comes to mind. If you set it in neutral, it will then be too lean when you put it in gear...and die. That's followed by attempted starts while you flood it, making it harder.

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: 150 force super frusterated

What yesr is this motor. I have a manual for 1991. Let me know and I'll look up the carb adjustments. That way you will be in the bal park.

 

[gibby12345678]

Re: 150 force super frusterated

this is a 1991. I have new info. I thought there was fuel to the spark plugs, and it turns out there isn't. The fuel pump was also bad, i know this won't stop the engine from starting, but it is now rebuilt and works. I am now hoping there is something easy that could stop fuel from getting to the plugs, aside from the carbs. I brought it to a guy that also cleaned the carbs, and the intakes. He thinks it is some type of gasket that is preventing it from getting fuel. He said he doesn't have the tools to check it. Said something about filling with air and dropping a pound per hour. I have no idea what he was talking about. I am wondering if there is any kind of fuel shut off switches or anything like that i can check that would prevent fuel from getting past the carbs. I have the book but it only trouble shoots running motors. Doesn't really say anything about why fuel wouldn't get past the carbs. I appreciate all the help so far, and bearing with me as i am learning alot about my motor i did not know. The fuel thing makes great sense to me, on how this could happen. I don't know why no fuel now though. When i first bought it, i couldn't get it going either and it ended up being the kill switch was bad, and the carbs needed cleaning. I don't know anything about this kill switch as he just removed it and i never thought about it again. How do i verify this? Would this stop fuel from getting past the carbs.

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: 150 force super frusterated

The kill switch is electrical. It would stop spark from being created at the plugs. Have you checked the motor with the spark gap checker? If not spark even with the spark plug then it could be the kill switch. I only have the 90-120 hp manual. I'll look it up tomorrow. Also seeing the carbs are the same in operation I'll PM you the scanned section. Sorry not scanner at home.

I don't believe there is any gaskets that could leak other then the one between the carb and the intake. The intake has reeds in it. Are any of them broken or bent? You should be able to see them looking down the bores of the carbs. The reed pedals should be sealed/seated when the motor is not running. Might be that with your fuel problem. Also when you took your carbs apart did you put them exactly in the same spots? One carb has different sized jets than the others. This is due to having to feed 2 cylinders compared to the others. Read that some where here as well.

Hoped this helped.

 

[gibby12345678]

Re: 150 force super frusterated

Thanks, that helps me to know that this guy don't know what he is talking about. I did not look at the reeds however. When i cleaned the carbs i took them off one at a time and cleaned them, so i am sure they are in the same place. GOOD TO KNOW THOUGH!! I have good spark, checked with the spark plug checker. The problem is definitely fuel. My plugs are bone dry! I squeezed the ball so much that fuel came out the carbs. Still had bone dry plugs. The reeds however i didn't look at. Could this stop fuel from getting to my plugs? Are the reeds what draws fuel from the carbs?

 

[gibby12345678]

Re: 150 force super frusterated

i was reading some things on what the reed valves do, and the problems they can cause. This really sounds like it could be the problem. I am pretty sure that the guy i had looking at my boat was talking about these when he was explaining to me what he thought it was. I don't know where he got gasket from, but he was talking about pressure testing it with the carbs off and the exhaust ports plugged. reading a little on this it would be checking for air leaks. How can i just check the reed, aside from visual to make sure they are working correctly? Being that there is 5 of them i don't want to change them all for 350 dollars to find that isn't the problem.

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: 150 force super frusterated

Reeds only go bad if they are bent, cracked, or broken. They are flexable metal pedals that with the pulses of suction from the motor, open and close. This open and closing allow the motor to ingest fuel. With what you are describing, no fuel at plugs, I would bet that either your choke solinoid is faulty, or your carbs need a really good cleaning.

PM me your email address. I'll send over those pages you wanted.

 

[gibby12345678]

Re: 150 force super frusterated

To visually check the reed valve do I need to take them out? Looking at them once pulling the carbs out from what I can see they look to be alright. I can hear the choke solenoid kick in when choking it. Don't think that is bad. Held down the black knob and blew through it like the book says to do. That seems to be fine also. The guy who looked at my boat said he was stumped and said maybe a crankcase leak. A lot to check that on a whim. Plus I don't have the tools.

 

[jimmy120]

Re: 150 force super frusterated

Reeds only go bad if they are bent, cracked, or broken. They are flexable metal pedals that with the pulses of suction from the motor, open and close. This open and closing allow the motor to ingest fuel. With what you are describing, no fuel at plugs, I would bet that either your choke solinoid is faulty, or your carbs need a really good cleaning.

PM me your email address. I'll send over those pages you wanted.

What does the choke solenoid do? What happens to the motor if it is inoperable or missing the plunger/link assembly?

 

[memito]

Re: 150 force super frusterated

Did you fix the problem ?

 

[snowshoveler]

Re: 150 force super frusterated

Back in the day ...I worked at a Bayliner Mercury dealer. I remember there were many service bullitins about those 5 cylinder motors spinning the flywheel key in the crank.
After that i saw atleast 3 with new shortblocks. We did not do the work to shortblock them but were just servicing them.
I do beleive that the work was done under warranty at time. That's 15 odd years ago so its a little sketchy in my memory.
I would think if your motor had this problem it would be hard to find unless you knew about it.
A machine shop should be able to do a fix without doing a shortblock replacement.
Seems to me the taper on the flywheel didn't mach the taper on the crank.
Check it out
Regards chris