1970 Johnson 25R70E ignition problems

J Dawg

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May 29, 2016
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I have a great looking and good running Johnson 25hp. I have replaced and cleaned a lot of things on this motor. I got it from a coworker who had let it sit for a few years, but it took very little to get it running. When I start it it runs rough and backfires/sputters and then dies. I have had it out on the lake to see if it would clear up running at wot, but it hasn't gotten any better. This spring I took apart motor and re-sealed the crankcase halves, new points and condensers, carb re-built, and new hoses for both fuel and crankcase breather hoses. When I pulled off flywheel, one of the ground wires for the coil had rubbed against the flywheel. I moved it and coated wire with liquid electrical tape to cover wire. What else should I look at? Could I have a bad coil? Could the wrong plugs cause this? I am running champion J8C plugs as that was what was in it when I got it. Any help, please.
 

oldboat1

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Probably just the wire abrasion under the flywheel. Run champion J4C plugs.
 

AlTn

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how much of an effect on the idle are you getting by adjusting the idle mixture screw ?..obviously too rich < chugging > to obviously too lean < extremely hard to start to no start when the idle mixture needle is screwed in too far > ?
 

J Dawg

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When I started the motor after putting everything back together, it fired immediately! It runs for a few seconds normal, then starts to backfire and it doesn't get better. I have the needle turned two and a quarter out like it was set before tearing down. This is the same way it ran last year before I changed all the things and cleaned the carb which was very clean to begin with. I thought it was a leak between the halves of the crank case because it was wet down one side along that seam. I cleaned it thoroughly and put neoprene gasket maker in there and let it set up before torquing down. Along the way I noticed the rubber hoses between the halves that were bad and replaced them. Now I have it sealed/cleaned and new points/condenser and it still runs this way. I have a video of it running this way and will try to post it so you can see what it is I am talking about. I have owned a few of these motors and have never had this happen.
 

oldboat1

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Initial setting for the needle is about 1 to 1 1/2 open -- object is to get the motor to run and warm up. Then adjust for best operation (has to shift in and out of gear without stalling or stumbling). Do this in the lake or in a barrel (need back pressure).
 

J Dawg

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Ok, only thing I haven't tried is replacing coils and wires. It is starting up and running normal for about 15-20 seconds, then it starts to backfire and die. Try to restart and it just backfires and can't stay running. Could this just be a bad coil that only shows bad under load? I ohmed them out and got 5500 on primary of one and 7700 on the other. Secondary went to zero on both.
 

Joe Reeves

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Feb 24, 2002
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1970 Johnson 25hp.. A coworker who had let it sit for a few years. When I start it it runs rough and backfires/sputters and then dies. I took apart motor and re-sealed the crankcase halves, new points and condensers, carb re-built, and new hoses for both fuel and crankcase breather hoses. I pulled off flywheel, one of the ground wires for the coil had rubbed against the flywheel. I moved it and coated wire with liquid electrical tape to cover wire. Could I have a bad coil? Could the wrong plugs (J8C) cause this?

(A FYI Note)
Whenever re-sealing the crankcase halves, keep in mind that the block is cast in one piece, then split. This means that the two halves are a perfect match of which neither will fit to another engine's half. As such, DO NOT ever (hard force) sandpaper either of the two halves but rather carefully clean them with lacquer thinner or acetone, and a sharp bladed putty knife... a very light sanding with #320 or #400 sandpaper just to clean away residue is okay.

Normally, when sealing a metal to metal surface, the sealant to use would be "Gel-Seal" which seals in the absence of air. As one tightens the bolts, the sealant hardens ans seals thoroughly (used on the later model engines thoroughly). This would be sealant.... "Gel Seal" or "Loctite #518". (End of FYI Note)

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The J8C plug runs so hot that it will eventually cause a aluminum piston to start melting. That engine requires either Champion J4C or J6C plugs gaped at .030. I'd recommend the J6C plugs due to the engine age.
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(Point Setting Of Magneto Models)
(J. Reeves)

Note that there are other ways to set points such as using a ohm meter or timing light... however, the following will result in a setting so close to being exact that one could not tell the difference.

Make sure that your feeler gauge is absolutely clean so as NOT to transfer oil/grease to the points.

Set the points as follows. Have the flywheel key aligned with the fiber rubbing portion of the ignition points. Adjust the gap so that a .020 gauge will pass thru but a .022 will not. Should there be any question of the points being dirty (touching the contact with your finger would cause them to be dirty), clean them with a small brush and acetone or lacquer thinner.

NOTE 1: Should the operating cam have a small portion on it with the word "SET" imprinted, align this portion with the fiber rubbing portion instead of the flywheel key.

NOTE 2: Should the cam have the word TOP embossed on the top of it, that is a cam that could be installed upside down and this is simply telling you which side is up. It is not a position where one would set the points.
********************

Clean and rebuild the carburetor if you haven't done so already.

Be sure to carefully clean the brass high speed jet, located horizontally in the bottom center of the float chamber, way in back of the drain screw. Solvent and air pressure just doesn't do that job properly... and fuel must flow through that jet before it can flow to anywhere else.
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(Carburetor Adjustment - Single S/S Adjustable Needle Valve)
(J. Reeves)

Initial setting is: Slow speed = seat gently, then open 1-1/2 turns.

Start engine and set the rpms to where it just stays running. In segments of 1/8 turns, start to turn the S/S needle valve in. Wait a few seconds for the engine to respond. As you turn the valve in, the rpms will increase. Lower the rpms again to where the engine will just stay running.

Eventually you'll hit the point where the engine wants to die out or it will spit back (sounds like a mild backfire). At that point, back out the valve 1/4 turn. Within that 1/4 turn, you'll find the smoothest slow speed setting.

When you have finished the above adjustment, you will have no reason to move them again unless the carburetor fouls/gums up from sitting, in which case you would be required to remove, clean, and rebuild the carburetor anyway.
**************************************
Let us know how things go for you.
 

AlTn

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examine the bottom of the coils for any signs of arcing...wires..cheap to replace if you have a source for 7mm, solid core wire...you can try cutting off 1/2" of wire from each end and reattaching...coil end twist onto the spike in the coil..plug end just pulls out of the boot, cut, and reattach
 

J Dawg

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May 29, 2016
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I thank you for that info, Joe. I have used this neoprene gasket in place of a lot of other applications. I have set points to the exact same specs on this motor after checking the previous points before removing them. The old ones were set to the same .020 and were a little dirty. But after I changed them and set them, it ran the exact same as before. I cut off the end of the wire to get a new contact in the coil, hoping to find corrosion or something. But all is looking good, no arc on outside of coils or other traces of carbon tracks. I cleaned all the ends of the wire terminals and I have cleaned the points every time. I ordered new coils to try that as my last attempt to rectify this backfire issue. If this doesn't fix it, I am going to tear this engine apart and inspect everything to find another reason. Cylinders all looked good from inside when I opened the two halves. I didn't remove pistons from the bores, but I will have to rebuild this motor if I can't fix this. I have a 1960 Evinrude 18 hp that needs a full rebuild, and a 1973 Mercury 402 that doesn't have spark that I want to get running. Thanks for your help.
 

brsoo

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Jul 23, 2015
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I have the same problem!
Mines a 1973 evinrude 25hp. I don't know the exact model..
I have thus far:
Cleaned / set points .20
Put in new condensers
Inspected driver coil (can't figure how to test except + - had continuity)
Both ignition coils tested 4500 ohm
Cut spark wires for better contact
Rebuilt carb 5 times. Used different parts
Found choke on carb fluttering. Fixed it
Using j8c plugs regapped .30 then .35 then .40
Used 2 different fuel pumps ( neither are new)
Cleaned magneto on fly wheel
Messed with idle screw to no avail
New fuel tank and hose. Also lines
Compression is 120psi on both
Lower unit oil looks good. Pees normal

I'm now at a loss. Only thing I can think is that I have water in my fuel some how??
I notice my carb throat has milky green gas in it?
Is this weird or just green gas that's getting bubbles or heat to it?
 
Last edited:

brsoo

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Picture of the carb
 

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brsoo

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To the fellow above me. I'm thinking the one coil testing less than the other might be your issue?
I'd start with a new one.. A test I did was to put old plugs in the motor and leave the new good plugs connected and out of the block. To check spark under load. That may reveal a weak coil.
The next, have you bought a new carb kit??
I have not. And have read of bad gaskets that let in just enough air in the float to make it run shifty.

Mine starts well at first wot and when I try to idle its coughs and sputters out. Normally a large drop in rpm until dead.
Then after restarting a few times it seems to not want to start with choke. I've set the screw anywhere from 1 turn out to 2-1/2..
Does yours act this way??
 

J Dawg

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I have done everything that I can think of, except to tear the head off and verify rings and pistons haven't burned thru. I took apart the carb and verified everything is clean and clear. I bought new coils and installed them in the correct order and make sure wires are seated all the way in. Power head seem very warm for only running for five minutes! I have it in a barrel and make sure that the water pump is submerged and I added a telltale out of the top of the thermostat housing to verify the water pump is running properly. The heat of the power head makes me think it is detonation or plugged passage in the block. I took the carb off and checked the reed plate and saw a questionable black stain on two reed leafs. I pulled it completely off and checked surfaces and if something has gotten into the reeds to leave it open. Maybe the reeds are worn out and don't make a complete seal. I haven't found replacement reeds available to replace them. But after looking at them and seeing the black stains, I flipped them over to see if they were warped or bent to stay open. But after a new gasket, made by hand as a last minute idea to put a new one on, and everything put back together correctly and checking the mag leads as to maybe one plug was dropping out. The bottom plug was more wet than the top plug, but not out of the ordinary for a twin cyl engine not running right. Nothing obvious and in plain sight. I am at my wits end and I have little patients to deal with this anymore!!! If anybody has any further input of where to look, please give me further advice or something else to try. It has been too bright to try spark testing besides putting an in-line light.
 

racerone

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???---Neoprene gasket maker and you let it set-up ??--That is a metal to metal joint !!---Only use a thin bead of the proper sealer ( gel seal or 518 ) or you can not get the bearings clamped up properly.---Most of the sealer should squeeze out for a proper fit of the bearings.------I believe you should revisit this assembly work !!!
 

F_R

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Probably not what's causing your grief, but J8C plugs are too hot for that high compression / high RPM motor. They could cause destruction by pre-ignition at WOT. It is supposed to have J4C.
 

J Dawg

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That I will. But, this problem existed before I did any of that work. The neoprene gasket maker I put in was just as thin as metal to metal contact. But to verify that is not the problem, I will get that gel stuff and clean everything off and try it. I am not saying I was 100% right about anything. I am ready and willing to try anything that will save this motor. Thank you for the advice and give me any other info you can.
 

brsoo

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Jul 23, 2015
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Ok so I posted a rather long description of my issues under a new post. It may not be the same issue but I would think it may help.
I have a different ignition system I believe. But my findings where that I also had a more fouled plug in cylinder 2. I think it was a weak spark in that line. My two main issues where the plug wires not making strong enough contact. I stripped them like speaker wire to create more contact in coil. Then glued in place..
Also my fuel pump was rebuilt wrong. The second one I had was incompatible. I rebuilt it today and it worked.
BOTH my tests checked good for weak spark and good fuel flow. Turns out only a spark tester with plugs in cylinder shows accurate.
Also fuel pump was pumping. Just slightly less than it should!
I hope this helps!
 

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racerone

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During the assembly work you did line up the bearings and the dowels in the block ?.-----I have to ask as I was not there during the work.
 

J Dawg

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There were no dowels per se, you mean the alignment marks on the bearing journals and the bearings themselves? Bearings on crank lined up with their markings and the top and bottom seals looked good. I may just find correct size of rubber o rings for the top and bottom seal and replace those as well. I have another idea, could one of the mag wires possibly be grounding out and causing a bad spark on one of the coils? Just a thought as I have taken the plate off numerous times and removed the brackets for the coils wires and the mag wires to check/replace coils. I would like to test plugs and wires to see if this is possible. I hate that everything gets bunched together under the ignition plate to run down their respective sides. I am going to test the theory when I get back from vacation and see what I come up with. I may just replace those wires with a smaller diameter wire and jacket to fit under the plate.
 
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