1987 Johnson - No Spark

[Itsanss]

1987 Johnson 25HP J25RCUR

Still in the process of converting from tiller controls to remote. One of the last things on my list for this project was moving the kill and start switches to the dash next to the steering wheel.

The engine started and ran fine until I did this. It's gotta' be something simple, but I'm missing what it is. There's no spark. The kill switch that I got is a SeaChoice 11681. There are four prongs on it and at first I thought that maybe I was just using the wrong two prongs, so I swapped the wires around, but, alas, still no spark. The tiller only had two wires for the kill switch that was built into it, and I've got two wires hooked up exactly where the factory ones were to the new kill switch. So I just don't know where to turn now!

Thanks, ya'll.

 

[Tim Frank]

Any chance that you have a "normally open " switch when the original was a "normally closed"....or vice versa?
Can you get someone to push the kill switch while you turn the engine over and see if you get spark?

 

[oldboat1]

Use your continuity tester to check the switch -- would tell you what prongs to use and whether the plunger opens or closes the connection.

 

[Tim Frank]

There are two ways to hook up that switch that could be correct.
Just see which one works for you.
Wires should both go to C terminals....OR .... both to M terminals . There are two of each.

 

[Itsanss]

Use your continuity tester to check the switch -- would tell you what prongs to use and whether the plunger opens or closes the connection.

Strange thing….The “C” terminals read 0.4 ohms with the switch depressed or the cord pulled. Reads 0.L with switch NOT depressed and with cord installed. The “M” terminals is the opposite. 0.L with switch depressed or the cord pulled. 0.4 ohm with the switch not depressed and the cord installed.

I’ve had the wires on both the “C” and the “M” terminals. Neither seem to work for me.

I’m really starting to wonder if it’s not something as simple as I thought.

When I FIRST got the start switch and stop switch relocated to the dashboard, I would almost have sworn that the engine TRIED to fire the very first time. But then never tried again and now just cranks and gets horribly flooded with fuel after cranking and cranking. I wouldn’t swear that it tried to start the very first time, but I’m pretty sure that it did and that there was even a little exhaust smoke.

Could that be a clue as to what might be going on?

Thanks so much for the help. I just lack this and a couple small things and I can take this thing to the lake and try out my new remote steer/start/shift setup!!!

 

[oldboat1]

Well let's see, set the switch aside while trying to figure it out -- take the kill switch out of the loop and see if spark is reestablished (black wires unconnected/taped off). The kill switch I am familiar with has only two poles (one pole for each black wire). Switch closes the connection, shorting the ignition.

 

[Itsanss]

Well, hell. Just went back out there and unhooked the kill switch and hooked up a remote starter switch. There's spark!! So I hooked the kill switch back up, and using the starter switch....there's still spark! lol I swear there wasn't spark before. I run a longer plug wire and cable tied the plug about 1/8" from the engine block, turned off the lights, and hit the starter. I really don't think there was spark before. But, by God, there's spark now. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt because I wasn't paying attention and was leaning against the steel tub full of water that the motor is submerged in and when I shorted the spark to ground (the motor in the water in the steel tub), it went through my leg and my hand! Oh my God!! Hahaha Haven't done that in years, but it definitely still feels the same. LOL :facepalm: :lol:

So...there's spark and the switch is working fine apparently. I did some tests with the switch and it sparks when it should, and doesn't when it shouldn't. That's almost embarrassing.

However, the motor still won't hit a lick... It was never hard to start before. Since it started good the last time, I have relocated the start switch, installed and relocated a kill switch, and removed the tiller handle. Surely none of these things would suddenly make it not start quickly and not start whatsoever... Ugh...the saga continues.

 

[oldboat1]

got to measure the spark -- need a simple adjustable tester (open air type), unless you are addicted to that old feeling.... I think you want to see 7/16" spark, and sharp. If you are getting weak spark, it could be that you aren't spinning it over fast enough. Unless pulling it over by hand, your battery might be worn down or the starter needs service -- or (most likely) the battery and other wire connections need to be shined up (sandpaper).

Did you put a compression tester on it?

On the chance it's a fuel issue, could squirt a little premix into each cylinder and see if it pops.

 

[Itsanss]

Bought an adjustable ignition tester. Got it set about 3/8"-7/16"-ish. Good, strong spark.

Put my compression tester on it. Top cylinder is 120psi, bottom is 125 psi. Not sure what is spec. Haven't had time to do much due to work.

Not really leaning toward fuel issue, but maybe. Maybe the fuel has lost its potency due to age. But this thing was just running perfectly a couple weeks ago before I removed tiller handle and relocated start and stop switches. Which is why I figured it was something to do with having done that.

Got two marine batteries wired in parallel. Been on trickle charger. Plenty strong and good connections. Sounds fine while cranking. Starter is only 1.5 years old.

Hopefully I can devote some more time to it soon! But those are my most current findings.

Thanks!!!

 

[oldboat1]

sounds like spark and compression issues are fine. Plugs would be L776C4 or the QL suppressor plugs, gapped at .030. Fuel 50:1. Maybe the link and sync was affected by your changes and needs to be reset. Start in neutral at fast idle (maybe overlooking the fast idle using the remote).

guessing here....

 

[Boogerruger]

Please find out what's wrong and post it!!! I have an '87' 20 hp Evinrude and have the same problem I have replaced the coils, power pack, trigger and stator and it still won't fire on the top cylinder or I should say ignite fuel on the top. Help!!!??

 

[oldboat1]

Assuming you still have spark, squirt a little premix into the cylinders through the plug holes and see if it at least pops. Failing that, do it with a touch of starting fluid (I know -- all kinds of issues with that).

I'm not an expert on primers, but yours may not be working or may not be used quite right. With the lever turned, you should be injecting some fuel directly into the cylinders when the primer bulb in the fuel line is firm and the electric primer activated. So with spark, think you should get a pop even if the carb is having issues.

 

[Itsanss]

Oldboat,

Wound up buying some new spark plugs. Just installed them and gave it a try. Soon as I hit the starter there was a loud backfire out the exhaust. Hasn’t hit a lick since.

What is the link and sync you’re referring to? Timing?

Thanks

 

[racerone]

Switch plug wires.---And was flywheel properly torqued ?

 

[Itsanss]

Well hell. This is kinda embarrassing. Hooked up timing light to motor - still had everything hooked up and in place - and the motor tried to run!!! So I kept trying and kept trying and it started! It started, with throttle at full, but it would only spit and sputter at an idle. I finally made the discovery that the throttle, even moving the arm manually to full, it’s only at idle. Now I have to figure out what has moved or become disconnected that makes all of the throttle “work as one”. I mean, I manually move the throttle arm, which moves stuff under the flywheel, but the butterfly on the carb doesn’t get moved. I have to move that manually to be able to rev it up. But it revs up and runs fine! I let it run a while to warm up and burn off some of that fuel that’s been dumping into the cylinders all this time of cranking and cranking. So, short story long, my engine has fuel, air, compression, and timed spark...but having taken the tiller arm off has apparently dislodged something in the linkage that makes it actually push on the butterfly on the carb to make it rev up past idle!!

 

[achris]

Sounds very much like the top and bottom plugs are crossed up. Did you move any wiring between the triggers and the ignition pack, or between the pack and the coils? Just for S & G, swap the spark plug leads over.

Chris.........

 

[GA_Boater]

Please find out what's wrong and post it!!! I have an '87' 20 hp Evinrude and have the same problem I have replaced the coils, power pack, trigger and stator and it still won't fire on the top cylinder or I should say ignite fuel on the top. Help!!!??

This called hijacking. Start your own thread.

 

[Itsanss]

Well, to follow up.....I believe what my problem was was that removing the tiller handle changed up the travel of the throttle linkage(s). Carefully following the movement of the throttle linkages I figured out that the throttle arm wasn't moving far enough to push the adjustable "tab" to throttle up the engine. So even with the throttle arm at full throttle, the carburetor was still at idle. As for my initial no spark concern....I'm honestly not sure if it was a comedy of errors that caused me to have no spark, or if there really was spark and my redneck engineered way of checking for spark just gave me a false reading (before purchasing the adjustable ignition tester).

Anyway, thanks so much for hanging with me and feeding me ideas. Wound up doing some tests on the motor that I probably should've done when I bought it. So I'd say all is well that ends well. I wound up being able to devote some time to the boat today....I actually had very few chores to do today and could have some play time! I finished the throttle cable bracket, secured the throttle and shift cables, and put away a ton of tools that the boat had been collecting in it from this very long project. lol

Oh yeah...one more question. What RPM should I expect to see at idle and what RPM is max? I couldn't find much for these specs online. Just trying to figure out if I've got the linkage properly adjusted for idle and max RPM.

Thanks again!

 

[oldboat1]

Maybe just to check your work:

http://ww2.iboats.com/Cylinder-Crankcase/dm/cart_id.996146987--session_id.570975012--view_id.1537715

The throttle lever assembly #37 is attached to the remote throttle cable at the bottom, and to the timing plate at the top. The timing plate has a cam on the front that opens the throttle plate when contacted by the cam roller.

If you have replaced the tiller grip control with a remote throttle cable, you should be moving (rotating) the throttle lever assembly using the throttle lever on the control box — attaches to the bottom of the throttle lever. That should both rotate the timing plate and open the carb. The roller rubbing against the timing plate cam opens the carb.

#16, 17 and 18 shows the cam roller assembly: http://ww2.iboats.com/Intake-Manifold/dm/cart_id.996146987--session_id.570975012--view_id.1537716

The “link and sync” insures that the throttle plate opens in sync with rotation of the timing plate. (The carb must begin to open when the roller contacts the inscribed mark on the cam.)

Proper idle is usually about 650 rpm warmed up and in gear. Top rpm is whatever the motor is rated for (may show on the ID tag). In practice, top speed and rpm are factors related to engine health, load, hull shape and condition, prop size and condition....