2 Ethanol Inquiries

[Sea Rider]

We are about to claim the Company that produces E8 locally to our Consummer Protection Department, E gasolines have caused lots of summer problems to most outboard users compared to previous non E gasolines use. Would like to know;

1-Are US gas stations obliged to use a water separator filter on their pumps, no. Just standard fuel filters attached on gas hoses.

2-Are you finding small white particles floating on fuel that bypasses fuel filters and clogs carburators ? Maple is the Company that's giving all these problems while making huge profits, are delivering contaminated E to be added to gasoline to produce E8 gasohol. A real shame which most boaters have had more than enough.

Not so Happy Boating

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

gas stations are not obliged to use any water separation filters. they do check the water content of the tanks daily, and if the volume gets high enough, they have it pumped out.

the gas hoses generally only have a break-away

 

[r.j.dawg]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

Well, I can't comment on what's available in Peru, but here in central Ontario, Lake Simcoe to be exact, all the marinas sell non ethanol fuel. 91+ octane I believe. Our gas stations also sell non ethanol as "premium" namely Shell and Sunoco. (Sunoco is now Petro Can) I think there are a couple of private companies that sell it as well, so we have a choice.

As far as water separators, all stations are required to have all their storage tanks equipped with them. I have to say our fuel is pretty clean up here. All it takes is one guy that sells watery fuel, and the word gets around and the next thing you know he's out of business. But that was about 10 years ago.

 

[Philster]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

Refined fuels, such as gasoline and E10 (10% Ethanol) in the United States, have proved very reliable when used fresh.

Older engines and fuel tanks/systems not designed for ethanol can have problems.

Not aware of any odds things floating around in U.S. refined fuels. <---OMG, this just begging for someone to counter it! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!

Fact is, U.S. refined fuels, including ethanol blends, are some darn fine fuels. After about six month and not stored properly = all bets are off.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

The white particles are very likely NOT from the ethanol but the result of it being used in engines that are not equipped to run it. Any rubber parts (gaskets, seals, hoses, some fiberglass fuel tanks, etc.,) can be affected by ethanol. Ethanol is an excellent fuel system cleaner so any debris and varnish that has built up over time in a fuel system will be cleaned up and deposited in filters and some of it may make it through the filter. Blame ethanol if you will but that is not the issue. Like so many things in life, if you do not adapt you have a life of misery. I routinely run E85 in my car and 70,000 miles have had zero issues. Where I live it is currently 55 cents/gallon cheaper than regular/E10. I find it real hard to believe E8 is having a detrimental effect on modern engines unless those engines are not certified to run up to 10% ethanol.

 

[Sea Rider]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

Personally don't have any issue about E8 will need to stick and live with them as all our 90/95/97/98 octane gasolines are now E ones, what bothers most boaters is the contamination of white particles that bypases screen mesh filters and clogs carbs in portable outboards, near same applies to bigger engines using water separators.

The Company that sell E to oil refineries should advise gas stations to place water separators or good filters to avoid buying contaminated fuel, has not said a word or advise about the consequences changing from standard gasolines to E addded ones. E is made from sugar crane and definitely not well factory filtrated.

The white stuff particles I'm talking about it's currently found when having filter blockages. Works well on most cars because cars have high pressure pumps and big gas filters.

Happy Boating

 

[Philster]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

I don't know how Peruvians secure their refined fuels, and don't know whether they refine fuels in their country, but the refined fuels in the USA are held to pretty high standards.

You either have a lesser quality fuel, or the fuel is being run through older systems that aren't set up to handle ethanol in any form. It would not surprise me if the very stations at which you purchase fuel are dealing with problems from not being ready for ethanol and you are pumping their junk into your tank.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

When ethanol blended fuel hit the scene in the US there was a rash of issues with fuel systems that had various types of coatings applied to carburetors and fuel tanks. For example, a car that I had at the time had a carb in which the float bowl was coated with a substance to ensure a porous casting didn't allow fuel seepage. It took a bit of diagnostic work to figure out why this car wouild run great on a 40 mile trip to my then job in the morning. In the evening it began bucking at almost precisely the same place. I finally pulled the carb apart and it indeed had the white granular stuff that turned out to be the coating that had been attacked. Chain saw fuel tanks were another target for this. Some chains saws at the time had the fuel tank as part of the two halfs of the outer casting. When bolted together the tanks would be coated with the same stuff as my auto carb. Once the fuel system was cleaned up and the fuel lines replaced with ethanol tolerant materials the problems ceased to exist.

 

[NSBCraig]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

I was just reading about ethanol.

When ethanol and gas are mixed the ethanol has no contact with air because being 10% it's surrounded by gas molecules. When water gets into a tank water acts as an "entraining agent" and pulls the ethanol out of the gas. (hygrocsopic)

As little as 1 percent water will remove or separate all the ethanol from the gas.

This combines with fact that it's real hard to make pure ethanol with no water in it and that the moment ethanol contacts air it sucks water out of it.

I'm not sure how well a water separator works.

The pump would have to reach a pocket of water/ethanol mix to send it to the filter and I'm not sure how something as simple as a filter could separate the two. It takes distilling.

Then it's somehow getting mixed back with gas at the right percentage to not lean your trucks motor out.

It's been interesting to read about.

 

[Sea Rider]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

It would not surprise me if the very stations at which you purchase fuel are dealing with problems from not being ready for ethanol and you are pumping their junk into your tank.

Will plainly agree on that, before E8 was introduced we had no problems with pure gasolines whatsoever for outboard/inboard use. Our gas stations were not updated to use E so we've been buying gas with junk untill all tanks have cleared out. This is the stuff been talking about, is not the engine, are modern ones and factory made to handle E10.White stuff is bypassing mesh filters and gas pumps to accumulate on bowl and make engine miss at 3/4 to wot when giving juice.

Happy Boating

 

[ggray]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

When were alcohol resistant fuel lines required on motors?

I have a 1999 motor and wonder if I should replace all of the fuel lines inside the cover.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

When were alcohol resistant fuel lines required on motors?

I have a 1999 motor and wonder if I should replace all of the fuel lines inside the cover.

About 20 years ago.

 

[ggray]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

Then it should be OK.
Thanks!

 

[mrbusdriver]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

I have a 1996 motor that wasn't set up for it, I had to replace everything rubber in the motor and tank, just saying.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

I have a 1996 motor that wasn't set up for it, I had to replace everything rubber in the motor and tank, just saying.

And what motor was that???

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

Will plainly agree on that, before E8 was introduced we had no problems with pure gasolines whatsoever for outboard/inboard use. Our gas stations were not updated to use E so we've been buying gas with junk untill all tanks have cleared out. This is the stuff been talking about, is not the engine, are modern ones and factory made to handle E10.White stuff is bypassing mesh filters and gas pumps to accumulate on bowl and make engine miss at 3/4 to wot when giving juice.

Happy Boating

the pic looks like my chainsaw fuel system after running E10. same mess in my friends dinghy motor.

 

[jmarty10]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

I see water seperators on my marinas fuel pumps but never at a gas station.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

I have a 1996 motor that wasn't set up for it, I had to replace everything rubber in the motor and tank, just saying.

After 17 years it may have needed to be replaced anyhow.

 

[mrbusdriver]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

A 40 hp 1996 Force

 

[ondarvr]

Re: 2 Ethanol Inquiries

A 40 hp 1996 Force

I had a Force, a Chrysler and a Wards, all are the same company, each was either built before E10 was around or in the very beginning of its use. None had to have the fuel lines changed, even after many years of a steady diet of E10.

I just started one of my 1969 6HP Evinrudes (original fuel lines) that hadn't been run in at least three years. The shut down procedure was to just turn it off, it was then leaned in a corner of the shop, it started on the third pull on one year old E10 that had no stabilizer in it. Purrrrred like a kitten.