270 bellows replacement surprise!

[stephenc03]

I was replacing the bellows on 270 volvo penta outdrive. To my surprise I found a lot of sludge in the bellows. It is mostly grease, however there is a lot of metal pieces in the grease. The u-joint looks pitted and I assume this is where all the metal came from. Looking at the u-joint, I can peal off some of the rusted metal. Any suggestions as to what I do next?
This outdrive is off of a 1972 bayliner and has an AQ170 engine. I was planning on taking it to Catalina this summer, so I want everything in tip top shape.

 

[captmello]

Re: 270 bellows replacement surprise!

Welcome!

Ouch, that doesn't look good. I'd say you're going to need:

New flywheel cover, including new bearing/s and pds and seals etc.
ujoints, bellows
Upper gear box reseal/replacement.


You'll most likely have to pull the engine.


Do you plan to do the work yourself?

 

[stephenc03]

Re: 270 bellows replacement surprise!

Welcome!

Ouch, that doesn't look good. I'd say you're going to need:

New flywheel cover, including new bearing/s and pds and seals etc.
ujoints, bellows
Upper gear box reseal/replacement.


You'll most likely have to pull the engine.


Do you plan to do the work yourself?

Yeah I plan on doing the work myself. The upper gearbox seams to be ok and clean. Is the bearing you are referring to the one in the picture below?

 

[captmello]

Re: 270 bellows replacement surprise!

Yeah I plan on doing the work myself. The upper gearbox seams to be ok and clean. Is the bearing you are referring to the one in the picture below?
View attachment 141194View attachment 141195View attachment 141196

No, I was referring to the bearing/s in the flywheel cover, #61 in link, which is the snout coming though the transom shield in which the driveshaft is coming out of. How much side to side play is in the shaft when you wiggle it by hand?
http://www.volvopentastore.com/Connecting-Components-Aq-Drive-Unit-270/dm/*******.650147391--session_id.324945466--store_id.366--view_id.771690
Perhaps the upper looks ok, but most likely the seals are bad from the water rusting the parts from inside the bellows. It most likely needs to be resealed or replaced, cost may be similar for a rebuilt/resealed upper. You can check ebay...

the snout of the flywheel cover I mentioned is beat up and may be the source of the metal chunks in the bellows. It may or may not be usable. If the bearings Inside the cover have come apart, the internal machining of the housing may be damaged as well.

You're going to have to dig in some more to see.

 

[billbayliner]

Re: 270 bellows replacement surprise!

I think that Captmello is talking about the PDS bearing.
If memory serves me, the AQ170 flywheel cover used a single bearing PDS with the pilot nose on the end.
Reach in and punch the seal out of your way.
Remove both large snap rings, and see if you can pull the pds out the rear.
If this is similar to the 4 cylinder pds, then it should come out the rear with the motor still installed.

In 1972, this might be a 250 drive.
You want to put a new main seal in [250 is different than 270 and later], and probably all other seals along with all new orings.

Be sure to replace the water neck fitting while you're in there.

 

[stephenc03]

Re: 270 bellows replacement surprise!

No, I was referring to the bearing/s in the flywheel cover, #61 in link, which is the snout coming though the transom shield in which the driveshaft is coming out of. How much side to side play is in the shaft when you wiggle it by hand?
http://www.volvopentastore.com/Connecting-Components-Aq-Drive-Unit-270/dm/*******.650147391--session_id.324945466--store_id.366--view_id.771690
Perhaps the upper looks ok, but most likely the seals are bad from the water rusting the parts from inside the bellows. It most likely needs to be resealed or replaced, cost may be similar for a rebuilt/resealed upper. You can check ebay...

the snout of the flywheel cover I mentioned is beat up and may be the source of the metal chunks in the bellows. It may or may not be usable. If the bearings Inside the cover have come apart, the internal machining of the housing may be damaged as well.

You're going to have to dig in some more to see.

I havent checked the play in the shaft yet. I will have to dig a little more like you said and get my hand dirty again. Thanks for the help.

 

[captmello]

Re: 270 bellows replacement surprise!

I havent checked the play in the shaft yet. I will have to dig a little more like you said and get my hand dirty again. Thanks for the help.

Let us know how it goes. Most of this can be done by a DIYer. However resealing the upper is not for the inexperienced, imo.

Good Luck!!!

 

[stephenc03]

Re: 270 bellows replacement surprise!

Let us know how it goes. Most of this can be done by a DIYer. However resealing the upper is not for the inexperienced, imo.

Good Luck!!!

I checked the play in the drive shaft and found absolutely no play. We had the motor and out drive running prior to inspecting the bellows. There wasn't any odd noises coming from the outdrive as mentioned in other posted on this site. What do you think is the next step besides replacing he u joints.

 

[billbayliner]

Re: 270 bellows replacement surprise!

What do you think is the next step besides replacing he u joints.

Replace the bearing crosses and the PDS bearing for sure! You don't want this bearing to go out on you.
It's cheap and easy to replace. A good bearing supplier can set you up with the bearing and seals.

 

[captmello]

Re: 270 bellows replacement surprise!

Replace the bearing crosses and the PDS bearing for sure! You don't want this bearing to go out on you.
It's cheap and easy to replace. A good bearing supplier can set you up with the bearing and seals.

Agreed, it's hard to believe the PDS bearings are good after seeing the rest of the carnage. If those bearings are ignored and fail it can damage the flywheel housing making much more work for you.

Apparently, if you have the single bearing style flywheel cover, you may be able to replace the bearing without removing the engine. Like billbayliner said, you'd need to remove a couple snap rings and figure a way to pull the drive shaft out from behind, as the bearings are pressed onto the shaft and the shaft is pressed into the housing and held by the outer race of the bearings. you can see the snap rings, and the plastic seal in the link I posted in reply #4.

As far as resealing the upper, if you decide not to go ahead with it, keep a close eye on the fluid level in the outdrive. A bad seal can allow the fluid to go into the bellows and leave you without the proper amount in the outdrive.

 

[stephenc03]

Re: 270 bellows replacement surprise!

Here are some pictures of the bearing. We cant figure out how to get it out. We want to make absolutely sure that their isn't a trick for getting it out on the outdrive side before we pull the motor. There was a seal, two large snap rings, and a smaller snap ring. We cannot get the thing to budge, however there is some grime or rust on the ball bearings. It is minimal at best.

 

[billbayliner]

Re: 270 bellows replacement surprise!

Here are some pictures of the bearing. We cant figure out how to get it out. We want to make absolutely sure that their isn't a trick for getting it out on the outdrive side before we pull the motor. There was a seal, two large snap rings, and a smaller snap ring. We cannot get the thing to budge, however there is some grime or rust on the ball bearings. It is minimal at best.View attachment 141366View attachment 141365

Even as late as the AQ 170 B and C, they're still showing a single bearing PDS with the pilot nose.
This style PDS will come out the rear baring excessive corrosion.

Make sure that both large snap rings are removed.
Wrap the PDS splines with a piece of brass shim stock and grab onto the PDS with a very large visegrip pliers.
Give it a hard pull. Shock the PDS somehow if you have to.
Even if you scratched the splines, they can be filed smooth again. It's a non-issue, IMO.

If you end up not being able to remove it, it will be due to rust at the forward splines or the pilot nose bearing, in which case it becomes difficult.
Pulling the engine is not option then until you take it further.
Some end up boring a hole in the flywheel cover to access the three drive coupler bolts so it can be removed.

Give it try first and see what happens.

 

[captmello]

Re: 270 bellows replacement surprise!

If you've got the two outer snap rings out, the shaft should come out however you need to be able to grab it, without damage, and pull it out using a slide hammer or puller of some sort. Some drive shafts are also known to rust and stick in the vibration Damper, bolted to the flywheel.

Are you considering pulling the motor? If so, you can just pound it out from the inside. By removing the motor you can also replace the inner grease seal. This is more work but I would consider it the proper way. I have the two bearing cover and had to pull my motor to do the job.

Is this a salt water boat?

 

[stephenc03]

Re: 270 bellows replacement surprise!

From what I remember, the previous owner had it in mostly fresh water. He also mentioned he took it to Catalina Island, But all it takes is one trip to Catalina...We are going to try to get the bearing and PDS out without pulling the motor. We will see how it goes though.

 

[stephenc03]

Re: 270 bellows replacement surprise!

We finally got the driveshaft and bearing out after a lot of backyard engineering. We used a slide hammer and attached it to a pair of vice grips to get lateral force on the drive shaft. It took a long time to get it to move a fraction of an inch. We tapped it back in and repeated the process a couple more times and it finally broke loose. There is some pitting on the drive shaft. I was thinking that we could take some sand paper to it to get it off. The drive shaft pitting is minor compared to the pitting on the u-joints pictured above. How important is it to have a smooth surface on the drive shaft near the bearing? Thanks.

View attachment 141893View attachment 141894

 

[Albers]

Re: 270 bellows replacement surprise!

How did the project finish up?