5.0 MPI noise just as engine fires. Link to vide attached

[Searay205]

Been chasing a noise just as engine starts for months now. Originally thought was starter but not so sure anymore. Just as engine fires it generates a tick tick tick noise, sometimes a whistle type sound, sometimes a screeching sound and sometimes zero sound. Starter bolts tight and correct length. It is aftermarket starter (blah) but still was $150 new. Cats have been removed but it made the sound before they removed. Positive its not the drive belt. Any help greatly appreciated. Engine runs and idle flawless. Note MPI engines delay spark for 1-3 seconds at start-up to ensure excess fuel not in manifold that could harm catalyst. I know most hit on first crank but not Catalst Engines.

 

[Jcris]

I listened to it a few times and didn’t hear anything. I’d take the belt off and just spin each pulley by hand. See if all feels right. What you’re describing sounds like a bearing as the sound they make when going bad does change.
Maybe the alternator?

 

[Searay205]

sound i referencing is just as engine starts not cranks but just as you release the key you can hear a clicking sound emanating from what appears to be the starter. Almost sounds like exhaust manifold leaking on a car. Again sometimes its a whine, screatch, this time a ticking.

 

[Jcris]

So you replaced the starter thinking that was the problem and you still have this noise. What did the flex plate look like? Were any teeth damaged? You need to begin systematically eliminating some possibilities.

 

[Searay205]

No didn't replace the starter yet. I bought boat used and it had API Marine starter on it as it does now. I have ordered a new quicksilver starter and will install when arrives. I learn over and over and over DO NOT USE AFTERMARKET PARTS. I did call API Marine who i think is part of SEI and they blame on bent flywheel. I seriously doubt that is the issue. I imagine the issue is the copied design and loose QC during manufacturing is creating a slight misalignment issue that binds the bendix from snapping back at times. We shall see.

 

[Jcris]

Seems odd that an MPI rep would guess it to be a damaged flex plate/ flywheel. If you do replace the starter inspect the flywheel closely. Rotate the motor and check entire part.

 

[Searay205]

I agree i will inspect teeth wear pattern, flywheel. I will also disassemble the starter, nothing to loose....

 

[Searay205]

What a surprise. Took starter off today and guess what I found. Idiot marine mechanic that charged previous owner for a starter replacement $450 gutless idiot ground down the bolts just after the threads which allowed enough misalignment to cause the noise. Either aftermarket POS starter didn't have same mounting dimensions as OEM starter or just idiot mechanic that couldn't do this job right or any other one. I loathe mechanics. 1/2 the fasters on my back seat was missing nuts. idiot just pushed bolts in holes. Kudo's to Searay when you pull rear seating area you have TONS of room to work on engine. When OEM starter arrives I will measure mounting holes to see if a difference exist. Ordered new bolts. I used to think auto mechanics were dumb followed by marine mechanics followed by realtors. but no marine mechanics are the dumbest....

 

[Jcris]

Well at least you found what appears to be the problem. No need to rant, there’s plenty of mechanics who go above and beyond to help and then others mishandle even the simplest job. Just be glad you’re capable of fixing this yourself. Send a picture

 

[Searay205]

I called API marine back to discuss findings. During bench testing I saw the starter pinion gear pop out and spin but it walked back and forth axially at steady state. I found I could move the pinion shaft back and forth 3/16 inch . API said starter definitely bad, shaft should not move axially only gear. Offered to sale me new bolts, lmao, problem is their bolts are just cap screws vs the Mercruiser which have a reduced head for easy wrench access. He said starter was out of warranty. I told him if he sent me one for FREE I wouldn't use it, fool me once shame on you, fool my twice shame on me. Quicksilver shows up tomorrow. I AM DONE WITH AFTERMARKET GARBAGE. Obviously he blamed damaged on the ground down mounting bolts. Possible, when OEM arrives I will compare mounting hole dimensions....

 

[Jcris]

How’s the flywheel look? Just putting a new starter in may not be the answer.

 

[Searay205]

Flywheel looks perfect, some light surface rust on flat surfaces. That said I didn't and would be a major PIA to use a dial indicator to check run-out. Teeth engagement looked perfect. My plan is determine mounting hole dimension on OEM vs API. If same dimension mount old starter with new hardware and try. If it works done. If not work mount new Quicksilver and try. I took old starter apart the API tech doesn't understand the difference between axial and radial. I couldn't find anything wrong with old starter. That said I didn't check current draw and spring pressures etc. Even in my video i can hear the starter wind down just after the noise. My gut tells me it was slightly cocked. Again 3 out of 10 times it made no noise, 2 out of 10 minor noise and 5 out of 10 starts annoying noise.

Made noise since day i got boat 100 hours and 3 years ago. I thought it was the belt squealing that why i didn't knock any off the price. After cleaning up the skeltons its been a great reliable boat, just don't like the noise.

 

[Jcris]

Noise is a sign of something not working properly. I always try to head problems off at the pass, so to speak. So many things start out as a small almost imperceptible noise and over time can become an issue. You’re right to pay attention to it now before it Potentially becomes a bigger issue
good luck

 

[Lou C]

Well I’d be annoyed too but it could be worse, the starter bolts could have broken off in the block causing a lot more grief! There is good aftermarket and lousy aftermarket. I had an old direct drive MES starter on my engine over 10 years and only replaced it because it was was getting tired. Just installed what I consider good aftermarket (ARCO) PMGR starter so far so good. I did buy their install kit with the correct knurled bolts..

 

[nola mike]

Sounds more like the install than the part. I can't picture how a shorter bolt would cure an alignment problem, but could for sure cause wear to the starter. Also wonder if the correct (metric v sae) bolts were used, and if the starter was universal. My sae starter wouldn't fit in my metric block because the mounting holes were a slightly different size.

 

[Lou C]

Sounds more like the install than the part. I can't picture how a shorter bolt would cure an alignment problem, but could for sure cause wear to the starter. Also wonder if the correct (metric v sae) bolts were used, and if the starter was universal. My sae starter wouldn't fit in my metric block because the mounting holes were a slightly different size.

On the Chevy starter style the bolts must hold that starter really tight, if they get loose it will get mis-aligned and that's when starter bolts get broken. So if one or both of the bolts was a hair too long for the starter being used (keep in mind this all hinges on the dimension of the starter mounting pad) the starter can shift very slightly under torque load. The old direct drive starters used a front mount (this was standard from GM, not marine specific) just for this reason. The PMGR starters do not use this mount but I think one could fab one up out of aluminum stock if one wanted to....
So when I installed my new ARCO PMGR unit I used their install kit (this you have to pay extra for) and then they say to torque the bolts to 30 ft lbs. Good luck getting your torque wrench under there but I got em Bubba tight.

 

[Searay205]

I will post a pic. previous installer reduced shank diameter where it is knurled. Didn't shorten bolt. He/she created clearance for something. Truth be told and I will regret this but I was impressed with the API marine starter, All steel gears, bronze bearings except end bearing was roller. One odd item is the axial play in the pinion shaft. I can move it forward and backward 3/16". I can't make the solenoid work on its own. Even when i disconnect the power to motor and hook 12 volt to solenoid and jump with screwdriver the pinion doesn't go out. if i hook 12 volt directly to ignition pinion doesn't pop out. If i hook up everything then it pops out while motor spinning. I also tried to force back in while spinning and couldn't with screw driver. didnt loos any teeth yet...

 

[Searay205]

Almost seam when engine catches to fire it over spins starter before it pinion pulls in. I used to alway guess when engine would start and let off ignition early and 50% could avoid noise. Ignition switch not sticking and was replaced. First thing I did. This catalyst engine so it cranks a second or two before fires to ensure excess fuel not in exhaust manifold that could damage catalyst. non cat 5.0 mpi hit immediately.

 

[Searay205]

Got new starter it looks identical except the dimension of bolt length dimension. In other words the new starter will result in 2 threads less engagement in block since the starter casting is taller. Still waiting on new bolts. Don't know if that could result in an issue, starter appeared tight to block before i removed. I have to give Searay credit again. I can have new starter on (boat not back together) in 5 minutes. I going to install both starters and see what happens. I have read nightmare stories about starter bolts breaking off, guess i put some never seize on threads before install, would rather use silicone but blind hole don't want hydrolock bolt and crack something. Could use thread locker to protect threads but bolt accessibility still a little tight to overcome additional force removing next time.

 

[Searay205]

Mystery of ground down bolts solved. Got my new Quicksilver bolts and the bolts will not go though aftermarket starter. They get hung up by the knurled area. On Quicksilver new starter they fit perfectly, not even .0005" clearance. The knurls rub a little on starter mounting hole while rotating. That tells me alignment is pretty tight specification. saga continues. Just to clarify on one hole thebolt wouldn't fit the other one hole was loose.