'77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

[racinrc14]

Hello,

This is my first boat. Glastron ss-v 189 mer. 888/302. I have searched the forum, and can find similar problems, but nothing that nails it, so here are the details:

From previous owner statement "took it out twice this summer ('08), ran fine the first time, could not get it over 2000 rpm on the second outing." He furnished reciepts, from a reputable repair shop, for the following:

-New reman ford 302 marine engine in 2001.
-'Transom rebuild' (new bellows,gimbal bearing,hoses and seals) water pump impeller, water pump, t-stat, t-stat housing,etc. Jan this year, and winterization in Feb. Central IL climate.

I picked up the boat from her old owner today, and put it in the water. I confirmed that it would not go above 2000 or so while in gear. This will not even get the boat on step. It also stumbles upon acceleration. It shifts smoothly from neutral to forward and reverse, however there does seem to be an unrelated 'thumping' noise coming from the transom area that rises and falls in frequency with engine RPM. I am familiar with a rod-knock sound, but this is different. Perhaps a rubber bushing of some sort? I have no reason not to believe the previous owners' statements, especially since he provided reciepts of work he and the other previous owners have had done. The engine seems to rev okay in neutral, but I don't believe that has any real diagnostic value.

So here are the questions:
-What could be possible causes for a 'sudden' decrease in performance?
-How do I check the fuel system for contaminants?
-Could this be a problem with the linkage and if so, what adjustments do I need to check?
-I have a sevice manual on the way, but any help would be much appreciated.

 

[ziggy]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

congrats on yer new boat. here's a link or two that others have posted up that are a real big help....

read post #2 in this thread.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=208547
a quick test of the boats fuel system, prior to the fuel pump, is to use a remote fuel tank with fresh fuel, plumbed in just in ft. of the fuel pump....

this thread will get you the facts about your boat... looks like ya need #2..

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=251571

confirm proper manual by serial number... if it's right, read it.....

the thumping could be in the drive, maybe. you need to service it anyways. confirm all the new stuff that was replace in 01 is still good 7 years later in 08. you pull the drive off to do inspections of gimble brg.(and lub it) alignment (and lub the coupler splines), ujoints (and lub them), possible water intrusion with signs of the rustys, gear lub in the bellows.

perhaps also drain the drive of gear lub and inspect it for milky apperance which would be water intrusion, also look for metal shaveings. feel the lub on the way out for these possible shaveings.

there are trouble shooting guides in the service manual.

there are exact proceedures for serviceing your drive and engine in the service manual.

ask many questions on this fourm. many great minds here....

that's a start. i reckon others will be along to help ya out too. they know more than me. i'm just a joe boater that can copy links and read..... these folks will really help ya out big time.....

 

[racinrc14]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

Thanks for the help. There seem to be a lot of sharp individuals on this forum.

I'm going to try and find the fuel strainer/separator/filter after work today to see how it looks. Maybe a trip to the lake minus the doghouse and have my wife drive the boat while I look in the carb to see how the fuel flow looks. I can tell you that there are a LOT of new looking tuneup parts in the engine compartment. Here's a list:

Coil, cap, wires, plugs, shiny flame arrestor screen, exhaust manifolds/logs, throttle cable, shift cable, auto-style inline fuel filter.

Sure is a nice boat, hope I can get her to run...

 

[Bondo]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

Ayuh,.....

It sounds like it's running too Lean....
Ziggy's got you headed the Right way on that...

As for the "Thumping",...
I'd probably pull the Drive,+ have a look around.....

 

[racinrc14]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

Thanks again for the help.

When you say pull the drive, do mean the six bolts at the top, or separate the lower from the upper. Also, is getting the drive back on a real chore? It looks really heavy. I have a hoist, any special fixtures I should get for it, I have a load spreader already.

I didn't get a chance to get out there to it this evening, had to put brakes on the wifes car, but tomorrow for sure....

 

[ziggy]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

When you say pull the drive, do mean the six bolts at the top, or separate the lower from the upper.

the six nuts at the top... read your new service manual about it. it will tell you the exact procedure. basically. put it in fwd. this is a absolute must do item. remove the trim rams at the back above the trim tab. pull the six nuts, pull the drive off. it is heavy. 80lbs or so i read. hard to hold onto shape too, i think. i made a drive stand to support the weight and make it easy to slide off the boat, onto the stand. here's a thread with some ideas for a stand... http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=282634
if you read your sm. you'll see that it's end of year preventive maint. to remove the drive for inspections and lub. you'll also be seperateing the lower from the upper to go inspect the waterpump impeller. this is easier to do on the bench, and since you have to pull the drive.... might as well do that work on the bench.
as for putting it back. the drive stand works well for that too. just set it on yer stand, raise and lower the trailer, till ya get lined up. and stuff it back where ya found it. after ya do the proper maint. proceeder's ya need to do prior to putting it back that is. the sm has this info in it...

 

[chiefalen]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

Sir i wouldn't run that boat anymore till the drive gets pulled and inspected.

If it were my boat i would do a complete tuneup on her.

Time it right!

And after inspecting and sealing the out drive and inspecting and maybe replacing the gimbal bearing.

Inspect the coupler also.

I would make sure none of the motor mounts came loose.

And use a alignment bar to confirm alignment of out drive and motor coupler.

Also check if any bolts are loose holding the out drive ring to the transom.

The whole fuel system should be gone thru.

There is a fitting that enters the carb, there is a fuel filter in there clean it.

There is a fuel filter in the fuel pump, clean it.

There is a water seperator?

Oil filter looking canister plumbed into the fuel system.

Some boats have them.

That filter should be changed.

Than there is a screen on the bottom of the fuel pickup in the gas tank.

And a one way valve connected to the fuel pickup.

Check that it working good.

I would suck all that gas and gunk out of the tank.

Than i would when i get the drive back on use a external tank to make sure it's running good before going back to the onboard gas tank.

I would do a carb rebuild.

Than next summer you will have a good running boat.

That is a good motor and drive setup.

Maybe just maybe she still in good running condition.

Good luck sir and welcome aboard.

If you need any more help just post a lot of great mechanical minds here.

 

[racinrc14]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

Tons of help so far. I'll get after it after work today. I'm welding up a drive stand as we speak.....

 

[racinrc14]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

Got to it last night, here's the run-down:

-Has brand new fuel/water separator, but took it off anyway and inspected, looks good.
-Has in-line fuel filter, took it off and blew through it w/no restrictions.
-Took the center floorboard off (that's another subject for a later date) to get at the tank. Removed the fitting and inspected the pickup for debris, clean as a whistle. Dis-connected the carb inlet line and checked the screen, it was a little gunky, so I cleaned it out and re-installed it. We'll see if that fixes the no power problem. I also checked the timing w/a light, and all seems well (at least in the driveway with the muffs on, hard to check the advance with all that racket, neighbors might not appreciate it. I'll try to check it in the water next time out.)
-Got the drive off. Everything is nice and clean inside. The U-joint looks o.k., has just a touch of play in it, but not what I would call excessive. All the rubber looks new, as well as the gimbal bearing. It rotates smoothly w/only a slight amount of drag, presumably from the grease. I don't have a tool to check the alignment, but looking through the hole and checking with my 3/4" breaker bar seems like it might need an adjustment. I'll try to get a tool and check it properly.
-Not sure how to check the coupler, as someone suggested, without removing the engine.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

Got to it last night, here's the run-down:

-Has brand new fuel/water separator, but took it off anyway and inspected, looks good.
-Has in-line fuel filter, took it off and blew through it w/no restrictions.
-Took the center floorboard off (that's another subject for a later date) to get at the tank. Removed the fitting and inspected the pickup for debris, clean as a whistle. Dis-connected the carb inlet line and checked the screen, it was a little gunky, so I cleaned it out and re-installed it. We'll see if that fixes the no power problem. I also checked the timing w/a light, and all seems well (at least in the driveway with the muffs on, hard to check the advance with all that racket, neighbors might not appreciate it. I'll try to check it in the water next time out.)
-Got the drive off. Everything is nice and clean inside. The U-joint looks o.k., has just a touch of play in it, but not what I would call excessive. All the rubber looks new, as well as the gimbal bearing. It rotates smoothly w/only a slight amount of drag, presumably from the grease. I don't have a tool to check the alignment, but looking through the hole and checking with my 3/4" breaker bar seems like it might need an adjustment. I'll try to get a tool and check it properly.
-Not sure how to check the coupler, as someone suggested, without removing the engine.

There should be zero play in the ujoints.....
I would guess that is your knocking noise...
As far as the coupler, all you can do is look for obvious problems by looking through the bell housing.....
The splines on the input shaft should be nice & square, not pointy.....
By all means, get the alignmeent tool & check....

 

[racinrc14]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

Ok, zero play. I would guesstimate that without getting an indicator on it, it's got around .010 to .015 play. Can these be rebuilt, or do I just replace it with new? They look similar to automotive u-joints, so they look rebuildable to me.

I don't recall what the splines looked like, only that they were all there and I didn't notice any circumferential grooves from being mis-aligned. I'll look them over again this evening when I get home. I'll also try to get the outdrive back on tonight (if the boat place has the u-joint parts) or tomorrow morning (I love Fridays off!). My goal is to head back to the lake (even though it's supposed to be in the 50's) tomorrow to check the power problem.

One prop question: How much should I be paying to get my prop reconditioned? It's aluminum. Also, its' a 19 inch pitch. Seems like the more I read, other boats similar to mine in shape and size are using smaller pitch props. Is my boat over-propped? That could certainly cause the bogging, but I can't really seem to find any reliable information regarding what prop is supposed to be on my 1977 18.5' Glastron SS-v.

 

[chiefalen]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

Sir: have you ever done a compression check?

Or a vacuum test?

Vacuum better. But do one or the other, please post results.

Heres the link if you chose to do one. Then you really will know whats wrong if anything.

http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm

 

[ziggy]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

Is my boat over-propped?

that would be determined by... if you car reach your wot spec for your engine. you want to reach the high side of the spec. with a normal load onboard...

as for the ujoints. myself. i'd replace them. sure would be a bummer to have one break while underway....

your splines should be nice and square on the inside circumfrance. not pointed...

i sent my aluminum prop to the prop shop a year or two ago. was $75. came back looking like new.

at least put some spine grease on your drive shaft prior to install. ya really need a alignment bar. i wish i'd have gotten one right off the bat after getting a i/o. don't bother waiting and get one. very good money spent...

i agree w/ chief. a lot can be determined about the health of your engine from a compression test + vac. readings.....

have fun at the lake. i'm put to sleep for the winter...

 

[racinrc14]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

I can accomplish a compression check, but it will have to wait for tomorrow. Not enough light when I get home to get at the aft cylinders. I may go to HF tonight and pick up a vacuum gage.

As for the prop, I can't get to WOT with the engine running the way it does now. Or at least, I can't get it over about 2100RPM. Worthy of note is that the engine doesn't miss, it just simply refuses to go over 2100 rpm or so no matter where the throttle lever is set.

 

[chiefalen]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

Not yet for my baby, going tomorrow fishing.

Strippers are calling.

We have all winter to figure out the problem with the 888. G-od thats a ole girl.

Hope shes healthy with the vacuum test we will see.

I should have asked for the compression check, or vacuum check first off, i'm slipping.

 

[racinrc14]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

Well, I was digging around the transom and found the fuel line has a kink in it. I dunno if this is normal, but the fuel line is copper tubing with compression fittings on either end attaching to the tank and fuel/water separator. Where it comes out the bulkhead, in front of the motor, it has been coiled and clamped to the bulkhead. This is where it is kinked. This raises a couple of questions. First off, there is a wire soldered to the copper tubing and attaches to the engine block. I presume this is to ground the fuel tank, but isn't the tank already grounded via the fuel level sending unit? I'd like to cut the tubing then replace the kinked section with rubber fuel tubing, is this wise, since it will be breaking the continuity of the grounding wire (or whatever it is)? I have never seen copper tubing used as fuel line, perhaps this is a marine thing?

 

[chiefalen]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

No sir not normal.

Should be rubber marine hose from the tank to the fuel pump or water separator ,and than the fuel pump, than metal tube to the carb.

Replace that copper tube.

Might be it right there not enough fuel getting to the carb.

Run the motor, on the water under load, post your result.

Compression test won't hurt though, up to you.

 

[racinrc14]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

I'll check the cylinders tomorrow before I head to the lake, after I fix the fuel line issue.

 

[ziggy]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

this might be a good read prior to replaceing fuel lines...
http://www.uscg.org/CoastGuard.aspx?tabid=54
follow,
regulations tab, then boatbuilders handbook, then under fuel systems, the fuel systems table of contents.... and have a read... sorry couldn't seem to link ya right there...

 

[racinrc14]

Re: '77 m-cruiser 888/302 no power in gear

So the more I look, the more I find. I really wish I had not taken the seller at his word after what I found today.

At the fuel tank, someone had threaded on a check valve (that takes approx 6psi to open) und used that as an anti-siphon valve. Right idea, wrong parts. So I replaced the entire fuel line running from the tank (along with a proper anti-siphon valve from the boat dealer) to the fuel/water sep. Put the muffs on to warm her up before taking to the lake (and to make sure it would start!). Started no problem. Let it warm up a few minutes before shutting it off to head to the lake. I thought checking the oil might be a good idea, since I hadn't checked it since picking it up from her previous owner. I am heart-broken to find chocolate milk on the dipstick. I'm crushed. I know I'll have to pull the motor now, eventually, but I am so dissappointed that I don't even want to look at her.

Any suggestions as to what to do next? Anybody reading this, who is new to this, PLEASE DEMAND a test drive before buying, AND CHECK THE DIPSTICK. Don't take the owners' word about anything.