85 OMC 3.8L V6 Water in Eng Oil - Boat Ran till knocking - worth it to repair?

[NorcalLou]

I just sold my 1985 Four Winns Horizon 170 yesterday which was equipped with a 3.8L GM V6 mounted to a OMC Sterndrive I/O. The gentlemen that bought it was new to boating and I took him out, launched the boat, showed him how everything worked, etc. We had the boat for 13 years and just were not using it enough and it was running fine when I sold it. Years ago i put in Pertronix Ignitor II and that and getting a factory OMC manual were the smartest two things I ever did in regards to the boat. I did my own maintenance and was intimately familiar with the boat. Know enough about cars and engines to work all those issues - chased down an intermittent power problem once with the help of this form (fuel pump). The boat has 590 hours on it (which is the actual number) a brand new interior and looks great. Typical stuff for a boat this age but the new interior was overkill from a previous partner that was into that sort of thing (bought him out last year - he was getting divorced).

So - why am I here with the subject above if I sold the boat? The Gentlemen I sold it to was new to boating and when he took it out today for the first time forgot to put the drain plug in. The oil level and clarity was fortunately checked the day before so there is no disputing that it was not milky - I have no idea how the water could have gotten in - but it did. One thing I am thinking is the place the dipstick enters the pan may have an old o ring that let the water in but I am just guessing. Bottom line - it got water in the engine oil (the motor was running as the water was entering the boat until eventually the motor conked out or he noticed the water level. He jumped in the water - put in the drain plug, pumped out the bilge and then could not start the boat. He called me - I headed down there - start fuse was blown from trying to start it - we changed it and he was on his merry way or so I thought. Two hours later I get a call - the boat is losing power and making a "knocking" sound - I headed to the lake hoping it was an electrical issue - looked everything over - and saw some bad things like milky oil on the dipstick and white cream on the oil cap. I knew at that point the boat had been run and run hard with water in the oil. I told him to fire it up and it ran but was making a knocking sound.

He is a nice guy and apparently I am too because I gave him some money to help with the mechanic fees and said if the mechanic could convince me it was not related to the flooding of the engine compartment I would give him some more. He is not mechanically inclined - I am but do not have time for this - one of the reasons I got rid of the boat was I am pretty jammed up with work and misc stuff. The OMC outdrive is in great shape though and I have to wonder at this point if he would be better off selling the boat piece by piece (when I listed it myself - I thought I probably could get more if I parted it out but don't have the time or storage space). He is going to work the issue but I want to be realistic about this and give the guy sound advice. Is he better off walking away and getting what he can for it? I mean the trailer is probably $4-500 on Craigslist and that is just the beginning. At this point with the money I gave him back he is out $2500. Any thoughts on this from wiser folks is appreciated.

Lou

 

[jimmbo]

How high did the water get before the drain was plugged? High enough to cover the valve covers? He was probably giving it plenty of throttle and the water ran back and submerged the engine. If the oil cap and pcv grommets weren't perfect water may have gotten in. There aren't too many ways for water to get into the crankcase. If the gasket/oring on the dipstick was letting water in, it would have been letting oil out before. If you buy a new boat forget to put the drain plug in, and the same thing happens, it is not covered by warranty. You get a big bill from the dealer.

There is another possibility. He had buyers remorse and sabotaged the boat

 

[Scott Danforth]

how high did the water get?

knocking sound was probably the rod bearings eating themselves if there was water in the oil. as for the point of ingress of water, could be the fuel pump boss, could be dipstick, could be valve covers, could have been the carb itself.

was this in fresh water or salt water?

if in fresh water, at a minimum, the alternator and starter need to come apart, be dried, oiled up, regreased, etc. and put back together.

if salt, the rotating electrics are done.

The good news, it can be rebuilt, or repowered. the bad news, its a 1985 with a stringer. There are no OMC stringer couplers that work with the GM 1-piece seal found in the 1986 and later motors.

either need to find a replacement 229 (rare), or a ultra rare 1985 4.3. (I found both on car-part.com)

the other option is to go with a late model 4.3, and have the ford coupler button re-drilled for the GM 1-piece rear seal crank.

If the motor was in as good of shape as you indicate, your not liable since the new owner submerged it.

 

[NorcalLou]

Jimmbo - buyers remorse - only because he knows he is responsible and he is. He has not tried to turn this around on me. We took the boat out the day before and ran it together and it worked great so there is no disputing that. He checked the oil after that and the oil was clean and gold - not milky. He knows this is a result of his mistake. I really am not sure how high the water got - obviously the water was above the starter and crank pulley and the boat was running. Doubt it was above the valve covers because my guess is the boat would be sinking at that point - thank God that did not happen. He was running the boat for a while with it submerged -

Scott - it was fresh water. Motor was in good shape and so far the relationship has been amiable. I have not been accused of selling him a POS and ducktaping it together and deceiving him. If I did not like the guy I would not have been as nice as I have been so far. All your options though sound fairly expensive - they all sound fun to me if I was retired - but I am not and this guy is not capable of anything you said so it would be paying someone. Bottom Line is he is not mechanic.

The real jist of my question is at this point assuming the motor is toast - is he better off parting out the boat? IT would be a sad ending for a boat that is in excellent shape - albeit old but you start to figure - he can get $75 for the prop, $100 for the exhaust manifolds, $300 for the lower unit, etc... Just takes time and patience. And storage space. Alternative is sinking what - a couple of grand into this with a used motor?


Was talking to my neighbor last night and he gave me something to think about. Could be we just drain it all - flush the oil a couple of times and the problem is solved. I said "knock" but it was really more like valve train rattling than a connecting rod thumping but I am no expert. Couldn't hurt to try - thoughts? Boat still runs.

 

[jimmbo]

It would have been better if this had been done already but give it a try. Change the oil and filter and run it on muffs. If it is still knocking, bearings and crankshaft have been damaged. If it sounds okay, run it for a while, change the oil and filter again. Take it out the lake and run it, at higher speeds, for at least a couple of hours, that should evaporate all traces of water. then change the oil and filter again

 

[Scott Danforth]

Good news on the fresh water.

I would pull the motor, flip it over and inspect the debris in the oil pan. if there are no bearing chips, then plastigage the bearings. Then go from there. could be lucky, however with any knocking or rattling, I would want to pull the motor.

If it was my boat, and the motor was indeed in need of a rebuild, I would spend the $200 on a salvage yard motor, put in $30 worth of brass core plugs, $70 on marine head gaskets and have a 4.3. Then spend 2 hours going thru the rotating electrics to get them back in shape. I would also probably drain the water now sitting in the tilt motor.

being a stringer, alignment is a non-issue, so your looking at a weekend worth of work to get back on the water, and about $4-500 lesson learned.

 

[NorcalLou]

Jimmbo and Scott - thanks.

Scott - so a 4.3 L V6 is more common I presume? Is there any kind of guide out there as to what engines can be mounted to this particular I/O Drive? Also - I am ignorant to this but are the CAMS the same for a Marine Engine or is the difference not that important. Freeze Plugs and Valve Cover gaskets is easy - pulling an engine (I assume you do this with the drive attached) and making the component swap sounds like a lot of fun to me - but not this gentlemen and I did not sign up to be his boat mechanic.

I am going to head to his house tonight and try the engine oil flush and say a prayer. IF that does or does not work I am going to still answer my phone but I am in an advice only mode at that point. If it does not work my advice to him is going to be part it out. It will be a shame but as soon as he drops $4K (that is the beginning of the boating season ballpark quote he got this morning) to have a mechanic swap the engine - the drive will go next - Murphy's Law...

 

[Scott Danforth]

Being a stringer, the drive needs to come off. No way around it. New owner may as well get his hands dirty

About 20 minutes if you have done it before, about an hour for first timer. Disconnect the shift cable at the bellhousing, tilt up, remove the clip, tilt down, remove the 4 bearing cap bolts, lift the drive, while someone helps guide the shift cable out.

The intermediate housing can stay on the motor. Take the outdrive gasket ring off, remove the transom gasket. Disconnect the electric and fuel lines. Unbolt the mounts, lift and remove motor

The 4.3 is just bigger displacement than the 3.8. You need to stay with a 1985 or older motor. 1985 was first volume year of the 4.3. The 3.8 is a bit more common, however your looking for a 31 year old motor with low miles (vs rebuilding what is there).

I would encourage the new owner to join iboats, we can help

 

[NorcalLou]

Went tonight and flushed the oil but no luck - engine is toast. Will give advice to the new owner - not sure what he is going to do. Thanks for your help -

Lou

 

[jimmbo]

He learned something, it was not a cheap education though

 

[Idlespeedonly]

Props to you, for going above and beyond in helping the new owner.:clap2:

 

[Idlespeedonly]

Ooops, wrong thread.