'95 Force 120 runs great but stalls at WOT after a period of time

cooter2

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Joined
Aug 5, 2013
Messages
5
Need a little help over here;

Here's what it does; it runs great. Unless you put the throttle to the bulkhead and leave it there. You may run 3 or 4 miles at 5250 RPM humming along . . . . then you'll feel it. It'll feel like a miss then the engine winds down and boat drops in the water. If you de-throttle within a second, you may save it at idle. If you leave the throttle more than a little open the engine will die. It will restart, though it may require reprime or choke. It ran a tad rough for a while after that happened, until I replaced the reeds. But the engine won't stall unless you go to WOT. If you go to 7/8 throttle you can run for miles and miles and not have the problem. It only seems to happen at WOT.

Here's what I've done (one at a time and with increasing frustration each time the problem didn't go away); New plugs (cured the occasional miss I had been having), fuel filter primer bulb and reeds. I rebuilt the fuel pump (twice) and replaced the factory reeds with dual stage carbon fiber. I ohm'd the coils; all the same, all good, strong spark in all 4 holes.

I adjusted carbs and idle per the manual (mostly because it was necessary after replacing the reeds). (separate issue; The reeds needed replaced when in the middle of trying to fix the 'drops in the water' problem the engine started to idle really rough, would stall when shifted into gear or throttled up. It lost rpm and I noticed gas blow-back through the lower carb. On inspection; 1/2 of a reed had shattered and another had just a small piece of the corner missing. All good now though.)

Put it all back together, adjusted carbs (idle mixture) and idle speed with the boat idling in gear in the water. It runs and sounds great.

I was really disappointed again when after I replaced the reeds and took it out, full on trucking across the lake when . . . down in the water it went. But it still restarts right away and now it runs great even after it stalls.

I've checked for a fuel leak or a blocked vent line. I assume if its not leaking fuel its also not sucking air. You can definitely get a mouth full of fuel up from the tank without working too hard, even with the gas cap closed, so I don't think its vent or pickup related. If I pump up the bulb there will be pressure through the quick coupler, pump and filter an hour later. Not so much if I run the engine, but the bulb stays full. (One of the new bulbs I put on would suck flat. Bad out of the factory or just a cheap bulb maybe.) There are no fuel leaks between the pump and the carbs. that I can identify.

When I tilt the motor up fuel will drip out of the upper carb. (When not running, I haven't .) I think its the fuel in the bowl draining out. Somebody told me that's normal. Not sure I believe it. Could it be a sticking float problem? Doesn't seem right to me.

What remains; compression test (will do next weekend, but seems irrelevant to a boat that planes out almost as quick as the throttle is pushed forward and it runs as fast as it has ever gone), pull the bowls on carbs and check for sticking floats. This doesn't seem too likely to cause the boat to drop in the water but I will check it. That the new (clear) fuel filter stays full when running at WOT. I need to let it die completely, pull the cowling and look. So far I always try to stop it from dying. It is possible that I screwed up the rebuild on the fuel pump, but it sure fills the filter in a hurry. I also haven't checked vacuum. But again the pump seems to run pretty good and I don't have a vacuum gauge. Might have to get one.

Also, somebody may have screwed with the timing a bit while all of this was going on, calling it the governor. I don't have a timing light so I can't re-adjust it. But again, the engine runs great except at WOT.

I believe the problem is fuel related because I can keep it from dying by quickly cutting the throttle and all the coils ohm out the same/good.

Also; ran it to within about a half gallon of empty twice and put in fresh non-ethanol fuel and premium 2 cycle oil. I'm pretty sure its not a water in the fuel or stale fuel problem.

If anybody out there has experienced this orcan tell me what the problem is I would be very appreciative.

Sincerely,

Cooter
 

pnwboat

Rear Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
4,251
Re: '95 Force 120 runs great but stalls at WOT after a period of time

Sure sounds like the classic case of running out of fuel. Not saying that this is the cause, might be something else.

Have you tried having someone squeeze the primer bulb when it starts to act up? If that cures the problem, then I'd take a look at the fuel pump, and the quick-connect fitting. Might try using a portable fuel tank and bypass the quick connect fitting just to be sure there's nothing wrong with your set up.

Might consider replacing the fuel lines too. They can delaminate inside because of the ethanol causing a restriction. A lot of the guys here replace the lines with 5/16" or 3/8".

Definitely check the timing. You can do serious damage to a piston if the timing is too far advanced. And also check the compression.
 

Jiggz

Captain
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
3,909
Re: '95 Force 120 runs great but stalls at WOT after a period of time

Another thumbs up for fuel starvation at WOT. Best $5 part you can install is a see through fuel filter between the fuel pump and the carb inlet. At WOT if the engine starts to stall and the see-through fuel filter is still full of fuel, the most likely cause is improper carb float setting. However, if the see through fuel filter is empty or below 50% full, the problem is upstream either with a improperly working fuel pump or restricted fuel lines or fuel tank.
 

cooter2

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Joined
Aug 5, 2013
Messages
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Re: '95 Force 120 runs great but stalls at WOT after a period of time

Pwnboat/Jiggz;

Thanks for the comments.

What would I look for in regard to the carb floats? How is the adjustment done?

I thought I'd pretty well eliminated fuel uphill restrictions as a source of the problem, but the comment about delaminating fuel lines has got me thinking. That wouldn't show up just from siphoning a bit of fuel. Maybe the flow is only sufficient to suck the liner shut at WOT? Seems like it should eventually starve out even below full throttle. Worth thinking about.

I did get a clear filter. Haven't had the opportunity to create the problem then observe the fuel level in it yet.

Anyway, thanks for the comments. You both pretty well confirm what I am suspecting; it's almost certainly a fuel delivery problem from whatever source.

I've been pulling my hair out on this motor since early June.
 

jerryjerry05

Supreme Mariner
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
18,183
Re: '95 Force 120 runs great but stalls at WOT after a period of time

Sounds like it's not getting the fuel.
The vent line, it can be blocked by bugs?
There any inline connectors? The have an o-ring in them that goes bad and allows it to suck air.
If the motor runs GOOD for a while it's probably set up right.
The compression on the cylinder that runs the pump? IF??,If it's lower than the others it could??? Maybe not operate the pump at optimum??? Not allowing the fuel in.
How many filters in line?
Too much restriction will slow the fuel down.
How old are the lines?
Ethanol is softening the older stuff, making it collapse.
I had a hose that ethanol ruined and it ballooned out and stopped the flow.
 

cooter2

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Aug 5, 2013
Messages
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Re: '95 Force 120 runs great but stalls at WOT after a period of time

Problem seems to be fixed!

Little follow up; ran it Saturday. Ran great, 'til I opened it up. It dropped into the water like before. Only this time I have a clear fuel filter. It was empty.

That pretty much indicated it was either the pump or a line problem.

I stewed on that for a bit while I finished the day's fishing. Overnight I realized there's only three original pieces left between the tank and the pump; line from tank to bulb, the line from the quick connect to the pump (thin walled grey stuff) and the quick connect half that attaches to the inside of the engine cowling.

I removed the quick coupler from the line to the bulb, removed the quick coupler and line inside the housing, and then ran the line from the bulb through the cutout for the quick connect and attached it directly to the fuel pump.

Sunday's run wasn't as far as I would have liked. Owing to windier conditions and the fact that the kids wanted to go swimming.

It then ran flawlessly at full throttle for the 3 or 4 miles between the boat ramp and the cove. I didn't really want to even run it at full throttle, owing to two to three foot swells on top of a lot of really big boat wakes. But for however long it was, the motor did not cut out.

I hope to become a stranger on this site, though with an engine that'll have a twentieth birthday in a couple of years, probably be here more often in the future.

Follow up question; for what reason should I replace the quick coupler? I know I will want to unhook the fuel line and run the engine dry when I put the boat away, but that quick coupler has given me problems in the past. Can't I just operate it as is and only put the quick coupler on as a way to seal the line shut over the winter?

Anyway, thanks for all the suggestions. I really do appreciate that there's people willing to convey their experience to somebody who lacks.
 

Jiggz

Captain
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
3,909
Re: '95 Force 120 runs great but stalls at WOT after a period of time

Congrats for your troubleshooting skills. For me the quick coupler main purpose is for shifting fuel tanks. I carry a portable 6-gal fuel tank for emergency use. If I happen to ran out of fuel in the middle of nowhere, I can switch to my portable tank to take me home using the quick coupler. 2nd it is also good for troubleshooting just in case the problem is with the in-tank. After almost 20 years, it's not unusual to replace some of the original fuel lines and also the coupler. As for winterization, I never ran dry my carbs instead I treat my tank with stabil and then ran the engine until the treated fuel fills the carbs. Leaving carbs dry can also result in scaling. Of course, that is just my preference and have yet to experience problem relating to sour fuel comes spring or summer.
 

jerryjerry05

Supreme Mariner
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
18,183
Re: '95 Force 120 runs great but stalls at WOT after a period of time

Inline connector:)
My boat had 2.
One for each motor.
When I bought the boat I removed them both.
They were famous for going bad.
I use OMC or Yam connectors if I am working on someones stuff..
I use an inline water sep filter and then a small filter between the carb and the pump.
Ethanol is NOT our friend.It ruins older hoses and some o-rings.
 

grininmonkey

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 26, 2008
Messages
35
Re: '95 Force 120 runs great but stalls at WOT after a period of time

I experienced the.exact same issue with my 88 Force 125. My resolution was proper float adjustments in both carbs. The previous owner had replaced the floats but did not bend and adjust the tab for the floats to sit parallel or flush with the top of the bowl. They were shutting off fuel flow before the bowl was full. My WOT issues was resolved, but I still have other issues unfortunately... piston stuff :-(
 

cooter2

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Aug 5, 2013
Messages
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Re: '95 Force 120 runs great but stalls at WOT after a period of time

Re; Grinninmonkey 8/14;

" . . . . My resolution was proper float adjustments in both carbs. The previous owner had replaced the floats but did not bend and adjust the tab for the floats to sit parallel or flush with the top of the bowl. They were shutting off fuel flow before the bowl was full. My WOT issues was resolved, but I still have other issues unfortunately... piston stuff :-( "

Sorry to hear about the piston problem, but can you explain how to adjust the floats? Does it require removing the carbs? How about cleaning them? I am fairly mechanically inclined but carburetors have always been a bit of a mystery to me.

In case you're wondering; the problem is back, sort of. Not to the same 'drop in the water' extent, but sooner (late in the morning instead of after a full day) and sometimes at less than WOT. (Happens at 7/8 throttle, even some fits at 3/4 throttle, but only after backing down from WOT). I'm not sure why every time I work on this problem, it improves, but only until the following weekend.

There's only one piece of line left to replace; tank to bulb, but the bulb was rock solid, even as the boat lost RPM and went off plane.

Fortunately it runs as good when it having problems now as it did when it wasn't before. (Top end of 45 now, before the problem shows up. Back when it started having problems it only ran 36 to 38.) Anything to that?
 

jerryjerry05

Supreme Mariner
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
18,183
Re: '95 Force 120 runs great but stalls at WOT after a period of time

Running the motor dry for winter isin't a good idea.
The cylinders are starved for fuel and can score the walls.
The fuel runs out on the top cylinder first and it can do damage.
Someone suggested Sta-bil. Good idea.
Any dirt in the fuel system.
Possible the pickup tube is partially clogged.
 
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