Advice on rebuilding vs parting ways

rvonahn

Cadet
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
7
Hi everyone - I just joined this forum as I've heard a lot of great things about it from a local yacht club I belong to. I'm somewhat between a rock and a hard spot and getting some conflicting information about my boat and was looking for recommendations.

Here's the history:

I purchased a 1986 19' Stingray Supersport (Mercruiser Alpha One 140) with trailer at an estate auction back in 2012 for $400. Not knowing anything about boats other than I wanted one I decided to take a chance on it. It started and appeared to be in acceptable to good condition as the previous owner stored it indoors. I took it to a highly recommended mechanic in the Portage Lakes area in Akron, Ohio since the auctioneer said it hadn't been out on the water in roughly 8 years. I also noticed the engine had a Jasper tag on it so it has likely been rebuilt. Repair bills for the two visits totaled up to about 2k.

The initial mechanic seemed very helpful, but immediately indicated it needed costly engine work. He pulled the engine and showed me a small buckle between two cylinder heads. He ground it out and filled it with Marine Tech filler. This did not hold and blew out the next time the boat went out. I took it back to the mechanic where it was then welded. The weld seems to have held up.

For the most part, the boat was serviced by this mechanic - winterized by me. Since this initial repair some things that have been done include bellows, impeller, shift cables, starter, points, battery, seat rebuild, bilge pump and tuneups amongst other minor things. The simple things were done by me, some of the more advanced things were done by area mechanics.

Over the years from being stored outdoors and docked in the lake the decking began to soften which concerns me.

I started having some additional quality issues with the initial mechanic (having to take it back over twice since the shift cable wasn't right, them taking an entire summer to replace bellows and also being accused of abandoning the boat on their lot and not wanting to pay storage when they never contacted me to pick it up despite me leaving multiple messages with them before going out of town) so I took it to and have brought it to some other shops - one of which was DRASTICALLY more expensive, the other two of which are now closed.

The boat was in for service last fall when it had the shift cables done. The boat had a tuneup at the "drastically more expensive place" by a mechanic I know who basically indicated it was not worth replacing the decking and I should just "run it until it's time to trash the boat".

My friend and I took the boat out to Berlin Lake in August where my friend ran over an underwater hazard which shattered the composite prop. I took it back to the initial mechanic for a new prop since I was told the turnaround would be relatively quick and figured the bill would be cheaper. I casually mentioned I'd appreciate it if they could check the boat and trailer since I would like to try to take it to a larger lake before the season is over. One month later I had to call and show up multiple times and was eventually told my "engine is knocking" and that I should "get rid of the boat as I will just be throwing my money away since it's not worth anything". I was informed it is "likely a slap pin but will cost an up of $3500 to repair, rebuild or replace the engine so it's not worth proceeding".

A prop change and the "diagnoses" of the "knocking engine" bill was $300 - which seems to me about double what it should have been.

I'm not too proficient with engines, however, I can't help but thinking something is a little off about this situation since the boat had been back to them multiple times for the shift cable they replaced and was not adjusted right and the other (expensive) mechanic said it could be run.

I don't get out much on the water, so I can't justify a new boat. I'm hesitant to buy a used boat since I may essentially have to start over with all the repair work I have already done. If it weren't for the soft floor, I'd honestly just pay to have the engine repaired or replaced - but I am worried since the floor is soft there may be issues with transom, stringers etc. I'm fine with learning and doing some work myself, however, I'm not really sure what the best option is at this point.

Sorry for the long story and hopefully I am posting this in the right place - I would like to see what some of the veteran boat builders and repair guys and gals might say.
 

chevymaher

Commander
Joined
Mar 29, 2017
Messages
2,937
It is entirely up to you. I did it. You got to do it yourself or just accept your paying out the azz. Anything they do will be at least 4X the cost just for parts than you can find them for. Then the labor is ridiculous.

And a new boat is way way out of the ballpark of what your wanting to spend hearing you go on.

Again it is up to you. Do you really want a boat or not. I got mine done for 5500 everything. New wood glass interior and motor. So if you are smart it isn't as expensive.

My maintenance hasn't been bad. 2 years and I just bought tools and bearings and bellows. I spent 265 bucks or some non sense. Took 10 days most of that waiting on tools and parts.

I did the hard part. Mine never gets wet. I use it constantly. To me it was well worth it.

I am facing the winterization coming and the long scarey dry spell before it warms up. Like baylinerchuck. I do other things in the winter. But I am Jonesing by the time it is warm again.

Like anything else it is a addiction. But it makes you happy and in a boat like you got. Once it is sorted out. It is super cheap to operate. I fill mine every 2 outings now I got alot farther now. 12 gallons and the truck only uses 1/16th of a tank to get it there one trip.

Watch some videos on you tube of 3 liters running. Then think do I want to be that guy.
 

rvonahn

Cadet
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
7
I got mine done for 5500 everything

This was materials doing it yourself? Or did you find a reputable shop to take on some of the work?

I'm fine undertaking some labor myself. I'm also fine trailering it a few hours if I can find someone reputable to do good work. I'd gladly spend 5-6k to get another decade out of this boat - even though I am aware that is more than it is worth.

The biggest issues for me are grinding out the existing material, and also redoing the transom if needed. My concerns are I do not have a good place or the space where I can make that kind of mess for the grinding, and I know the damage done can be catastrophic if the motor is not replaced correctly. Quite honestly - I am not even sure where to start diagnosing to what extent I need to be doing all of these things. Perhaps the stringers and transom are fine and it only needs decking. That's where I am starting to run into a wall.
 

rvonahn

Cadet
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
7
Thanks for the link! On average, for someone with little mechanical experience but a decent amount of wood shop experience - how long would you say a restoration like this would take? Also, in your experience, are there any shops that might be willing to grind it out for me (I share my garage with inventory for my small business so I can't really make a mess).
 

chevymaher

Commander
Joined
Mar 29, 2017
Messages
2,937
It is a boat. It is about using the boat. Like mine it don't matter what it is worth it isn't for sale. Cost per use it isn't going to ever be cheaper. Go on vacation in Europe or camping in or camping in the Smokie Mountains. How much did it cost. What was it worth. Your not buying stocks here or land speculation. Your doing it to have fun or your here for the wrong reasons.

If the deck is soft it needs everything. Or your wasting time and effort in a dream world. Just do it get over it. And use the boat for the next 30 years. It is going to be a better than the factory puts out boat. It wont rot as fast as the first time if neglected. And if you fix it I bet you take better care of it than a credit card captain even dreams of doing.

I used Lowes for wood. I actually made them pull all the pallets and went through every single piece to get the least voids and smallest knots. What I put back in the boat was 1/3 the size of the knots that four winns originally had in it. I used silver grade exterior wood. I left any dimensional lumber in the boat that was originally there. Stringers mainly. Talk is cheap. Plywood all fell apart almost all the dimensional wood was good. I look at it this way it can't be stronger if it isn't fricking there anymore. It lasted 30 years and outlasted the plywood by 15 it looked like.

Glass I got from US Composits in florida. Material I got from Joanns fabric. Thread I got at wal mart they actually have a nice upholstery section of nylon threads. I did wear out one machine and put the hurt on my white antique one. I bought a heavy duty singer for 120 bucks to finish with. The white returned to display status.

I paint cars so I had safety equip already. Wear a sweat shirt and sweat. Rinse with cold water to keep pores closed and itching to a minimum. I found swim goggles with vaseline in them. Were the best eye protection. The vaseline keeps them from fogging up. Not the best veiw but more work done and you really dont need sharp vision to grind. Mask I used is a 3M paint mask.

Grinder is from harbor freight. Take the head apart and fill that sucker with grease. The glass dust eats them. Saws all was also a harbor freight one. On the grinder get the insurance and they will keep giving you new ones everytime you chew one up.

Find my thread and read it. Frisco boaters sea ray on you tube is a good learning video. Boatworks videos are good to learn from.

Take your time. Do it right. Take care of it. It will be the last boat you even need. 3 liters are cruise boats. I spend way way more time on the water than the 8's do. They roar by and sit. I cruise and see new things the whole time I am out. You will find your average speed is higher because these boats are at a comfortable speed to run. Any faster they beat you to death and suck gas like a black hole.

I did every bit of the work. If I hired out anything I flat could not afford it.
 

tpenfield

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Messages
18,375
:welcome: to iBoats . . .

Can I be your mechanic? :)

Your story sounds typical . . . pricey repairs, long waits, mis-communication. Your boat is probably not worth much, and doing a floor/stringer/structure repair will probably cost $4-5K as mentioned. Along the way you could learn more about the engine and maybe save some $,$$$ going forward.

Your choice - if you are interested about learning what boats are made of and how to repair them. iBoats is very much a DIY site, so 'we' will tend to favor fixing vs. ditching the boat.

FWIW - if you take an older boat that has been sitting for a few years to a shop to have them 'check it out' and 'give it a once over', you may as well just leave your checkbook there too. There will be lots of things that maybe 'should' be replaced, but then there is the adage 'if it ain't broke - don't fix it'. . . So where do you draw the line? :noidea:

Sounds like the engine froze during its time in storage prior to 2012. The boat/engine are 34 years old . . . you've had the boat for 8 years (right?) So a structural re-build is probably what you are going to find. I would not be surprised if the engine needs to be replaced . . . Those engines are not all that expensive, hopefully the outdrive is OK.

In the end you will have paid more money to repair the boat/engine that it will ever be worth, but you will have a boat in good shape and lots of knowledge gained that will pay dividends in reduced maintenance costs going forward if you continue to own a boat - this boat or any boat in the future.
 

Scott Danforth

Grumpy Vintage Moderator still playing with boats
Staff member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
50,934
Keep in mind.....most fiberglass boats that are in the 25' and smaller range have a design life of 15 years. that means they are only designed to last 15 years. yes, many examples get a longer service life. however upholstry, wood in the structure and driveline will need to be re-done on nearly any boat

you bought a 35 year old boat..... well past its sell by date.

as covered above, you can do it. we can help

a good rule of thumb:

your hull will cost between $2k and $3k if you do the work yourself
your interior will cost between $1k and $3k depending on how much you do yourself
your motor/drive will cost between $1k and $3k doing the work yourself

I have restored about 5 boats so far. my latest is in the sig

the good news is you can get a complete motor and drive for about $500 if you look. just look for the "free boat" ads or the buy the trailer get the boat ads. there are thousands of mid to lad 90's bayliners good 3.0/Alpha packages and rotten hulls that you can get. you just have to buy the whole boat, and then scrap the hull.

what ever you decide, we can help. as always, the answers to 95% of your questions will be found in each forum's stickies
 

rvonahn

Cadet
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
7
:welcome: to iBoats . . .

Can I be your mechanic? :)

Thanks and sure!

I certainly don't mind learning or doing some of the work. My biggest setback (besides space) is of course, time. I rebuilt the seats myself in 2017 - so I am pretty confident in my interior work skills. I've also pulled the gas tank, starter, exhaust etc. on my own in the past - so I am comfortable pulling things out of the boat and putting *some* things back together. The issues I will run into will undoubtedly be around the engine work, structural repairs and prep work/grinding. My problems will be mostly around getting started (for example, if I cut away the decking - I'm not entirely sure what I am looking for to assess everything else or how far I should cut back). I'm expecting a complete overhaul of everything, and while the boat is old - don't mind putting some time and money into it if it lasts another 10-20 years.

A local shop quoted me about 15k for the work needed "assuming they don't run into additional issues". Other shops won't touch it and basically told me I'm on my own. Ideally, I'd like to find somewhere I can get the work done economically in case me doing it myself doesn't pan out. I'm fine trailering it within a days drive of Akron, Ohio if I can find someone reputable and economical to get me out of a bind. All told, I'd like to keep it under 10k (preferably closer to 5-6k) - I realize these types of boats are not "investments" and essentially worthless once they hit a certain age - but - I'd rather just rebuild this boat than have no boat or buy something else that will potentially be another money pit. At the end of the day - it's just a toy.
 

rvonahn

Cadet
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
7
the good news is you can get a complete motor and drive for about $500 if you look. just look for the "free boat" ads or the buy the trailer get the boat ads. there are thousands of mid to lad 90's bayliners good 3.0/Alpha packages and rotten hulls that you can get. you just have to buy the whole boat, and then scrap the hull.

Very solid advice - thank you! Out of curiosity - where do you typically "scrap a hull" at?
 

rvonahn

Cadet
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
7
So now the million dollar question - or let's say multi-thousand dollar question. I've read some of the stickys and watched some Youtube videos. The first steps I'm guessing would be pulling the engine and cutting out the decking and discarding the foam to assess the damage underneath. Based on the layout of the boat - I am also assuming I may need to "uncap" it. Hopefully this question is allowed but *if* I do that and find myself in over my head - what might I be looking at cost wise to have a shop do it and is there an area or shop that is reputable and would be recommended by those on the forum I can consult for an estimate? A local shop quoted 15k (over the phone) which seems on the high side to me since I have read quotes for around 6k on forums for stringer and transom replacement on larger boats. I am located in Northeast Ohio but can easily get the boat to PA, KY, TN, IN, IL, MI, WV, NY etc. if the price is right. I'll also be going out to Atlantic City in the fall and could drop the boat somewhere on the way. I'm probably going to pull the boat from the Yacht club this week so I'll try to get some "before" pictures.
 

jbcurt00

Moderator
Staff member
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Oct 25, 2011
Messages
25,176
15K estimate is likely fairly accurate, and could also be artificially high because they dont want to do the work.

Likely no one will want to. Basically, they fear that at some point you (or your wife) will figure out the cost far outweighs what the boat would be worth on the open market and walk away from it when the shop is half way thru. Leaving them stuck w a 1/2 finished boat.

In 99.5% of rehabs, it only makes sense (if ever really) if you do a significant amount of the work yourself.

Partially torn into would likely make finishing the work more expensive then it was if you let them do it. Ask your car mexhanic or plumber if you could help or do half yourself, see what tbey say. A few might be polite, some wont be, but most dont want your help. Boat shops included....

FYI: you dont want to gut the stringers &/or deck, pop the cap loose and drive it around on the trailer. Not a good idea w or without the motor.
 

kcassells

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
8,739
So here's whats up. Alot of naysayers but some realistic expectation. If you question it now then you sure as heck will later too. In other words just freaking go for it.
Any used boat you buy will have absolutely no gaurantee. It's all about balls in.
In addition don't expect to schedule a date for completion. Just go at a pace and financial amount that aloows tasks accomplished. At the end the boat is yours, it owns you and it's better than factory. The rehab is no JOYRIDE. But it awesome having a boat that you now is safe and reliable.
My boat was a total cluster duck. I made impulsive buy on it's design and beauty to me. It's been a long haul but man o man I am happy with it.
Then their is the DENILE factor. ....All the rot is only going to go away. It doesn't, so you keep pluggin away.
Perfect example of a guy who went against the odds and won.

Personally I love the challenge.

Building a '93 Caravelle 1750 Classic Bowrider

https://forums.iboats.com/forum/boat...r#post10810769
 

rvonahn

Cadet
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
7
Likely no one will want to. Basically, they fear that at some point you (or your wife) will figure out the cost far outweighs what the boat would be worth on the open market and walk away from it when the shop is half way thru. Leaving them stuck w a 1/2 finished boat.

I'm aware I will never recoup money reselling the boat, however, I have no plans to resell. If the work can buy it another 10-15 years being docked out here in "like-newish" condition and save me the heartache of buying another used boat and starting from square one - I'm mostly ok with it. As long as it looks pretty and frees up my time the wife is ok with it. From a calculated-risk perspective it seems to make more sense to stick with the known rather than purchase another unknown in my budget. The wife is more "ok" with me spending the cash than having another project laying around. Being at a private yacht club, I also have a tighter deadline than most and have to have it back in the water by next summer for my membership to stay in good standing. I'm not entirely confident in my own personal abilities to meet that deadline.

Oh...plus it would be pretty cool to have something a little more custom...
 

jbcurt00

Moderator
Staff member
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Oct 25, 2011
Messages
25,176
Start calling shops, most here are the DIY crowd and unlikely to know shops that do complete restos

Dont be surprised when some shops decline and many are similar to the 1 quote you already have.

Good luck however you proceed
 

Baylinerchuck

Commander
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
2,740
You’re gonna be all in, or all out. You can’t really start a tear down, then expect someone else to finish it. Having it completed by next summer is pretty tight, but doable. But you have to commit to it, and leave all the wishy washy stuff in the dust. I started mine in late October and had it ready for the water in mid July. It was tough but very rewarding.

If you’re gonna hire someone to restore your boat, you should probably just buy another boat. Especially if your deadline is summer. I’m sure this time of the year you can find something much newer for $8-$10k that’s in good shape. You also said you don’t have the space for a restoration......most places don’t want their space tied up in your restoration. Hence the big price tag.
 

Scott Danforth

Grumpy Vintage Moderator still playing with boats
Staff member
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Jul 23, 2011
Messages
50,934
its easy to uncap the boat. use ratchet straps and support the cap from your garage stringers.

you will have a feverish pitch for the first few weeks, and you will get burned out. we all do

then you will come back after a few weeks and finish the boat.

i called a few shops myself during my restoration. hence the reason I re-did the gelcote myself. it was either pay $5k for someone to make the exterior of my boat look good, or spend $500 in materials and a bunch of sweat equity and I do it.
 

JASinIL2006

Vice Admiral
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
5,737
I discovered my problems in August and started on the restoration that month. I didn't have to replace stringers, but I did pull the decking, all the foam, and the old transom before rebuilding. I finished in May, and I worked at over most of the winter (we had mild weather that winter for much of the time, so I was able to work a few weeks each month except maybe during February). Most weeks I worked about 20 hours, plus or minus. I think the my timeframe and that mentioned above by Baylinerchuck are pretty typical, unless you lose interest and mothball the project for a while. Or if you have major engine/outdrive work to complete in addition to the structural stuff.
 

Jeff Fro

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
202
A lot of great people and information here!!

I have received tons of info just reading everyone else's restorations.

Here is a short video of mine from the day I found it in the weeds to when I put the two halves back together. This will also give you an idea of what to expect.

https://youtu.be/6hTNKxA1vHo
 
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