Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

[Stan's Customs]

Greetings Mariners..<br /><br />1984 5.0 Mercruiser Alpha 1..Four Winns 190<br /><br />Well I'm tired of waiting for my new Mercruiser manual to arrive. So I searched the archives and got a little info, but just want to ask a couple of questions..<br /><br />First off here's the run down..<br /><br />There is a little water in the drive bellows (tea cup about)...The noise I was hearing is undoubetly from the Gimbal bearing...reached in and felt as I turned it. Feels like a bad wheel bearing, turns but pretty rough.<br /><br />The U-joints both feel good no slack or roughness...Both are rusty and sorta greasy on the outside..<br /><br />The bellows look pretty good to me..no splits etc.that are visible. The large seal that the out drive slides thru looks like it has been leaking into the bellows, on the bottom side..but there's not supposed to be water between the bellows and the drive housing right? If so the shift rail seal from the exaust passage or the o-ring from the water passage has to be leaking into that area correct?...there is a good bit of white sandy looking crud in that area too..indicating water from the looks of it.<br /><br />I have just replaced a bad exhaust manifold that put out a lot of steam..if that is a factor...and <br />the out drive oil when changed was black and cruddy...couple of teaspoons of separated water when first pulled the plug..Wasn't milky though, if that it a factor.<br /><br />Now, from what I've read I really don't to replace the bellows unless it would be foolish not too..What's the scoop here. OK to replace the gasket and seals (including shift rail seal) before the bellows on the outdrive and reassemble ...Or??<br /><br />Also it is not clear to me if you can replace the Gimbal bearing without removing the bellhousing ??<br />I found a diagram on how to extract the bearing ...but it's just out in the open, no housing pictured.<br /><br />Also should the u-joints be replaced..they are oily rusty but smooth feeling without no slack.? Well, a little inside the gear case....like rocking a pinion back and forth on a car...same same.<br /><br />Seems like most of the archives just replace everything ...what should be done here?<br /><br />Thanks and best regards...Stan M

 

[Winger Ed.]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

You can pull the old gimbal bearing with a slide hammer. You'll need a 'L' shaped end for the puller to reach inside the drive shaft hole and catch on inside edge of the bearing. They usually pull right out with a few good solid yanks on the slide hammer----- <br /><br /><br />However: <br />if you don't remove the retaining ring/clip for the bearing first,,,, it can get real involved and very frustrating. *chuckle*<br /><br /><br />There shouldn't be any water inside the drive shaft bellows. If there's nothing wrong with the bellows, someone might have just put the outdrive back on without any/enough sealer in years past after getting in there to lube the u-joints or change the G. bearing.<br /><br /><br />That boats old enough to have had one or more changed. If ya rev. the engine up fairly high with the outdrive raised all the way up- it will sure tear one up pretty quick.

 

[Stan's Customs]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

Hi Winger.<br /><br />I don't think this one has a snap ring..the diagram I saw drove the side of the bearing inward until it was sideways, and then pulled straight forward thru some reliefs machined in the ring? 1984 and earlier...?? I just can't tell if that can be done within the bell housing..I guess it can.<br /><br />Is there a particular method to determine if the bellows should be replaced ...??<br /><br />Stan

 

[Don S]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

Stan, twisting the inside out only works if the outer race of the old bearing has the 2 grooves showing, It's actually better to replace the complete bearing, tha5 is why they sell the whole bearing, not just part of it.<br />Below is section 4A of the Mercruiser manual you can read. It's the section on how to change the gimbal bearing and bellows.<br />I have had the pleasure of replacing bunches of those bellows, and was not always able to find the hole that caused the leak, but in the water they will leak. Also, any time the drive is removed every oring, seal and gasket should be replaced. (Not the shift shaft seal) They come in a kit that is only around $6 and is a lot cheaper than gimbal bearings and ujoints.<br /><br /> Section 4A of Mercruiser manual #6

 

[DHPMARINE]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

My guess is a small ammout of water is because it drains out the way it gets in.! 1984 boat and water there....time for 3 new bellows,water hose,bearing and shift cable.Also trim send and limit switch.<br /><br />DHP

 

[Stan's Customs]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

Hello Don...<br /><br />Yes the race on this one does have the 2 groves showing...So your not supposed to twist the inside out? <br /><br />If the race is smooth..is replacing just the bearing acceptable then....like some automotive bearings? I ask, because I doubt that any of my pullers will work well on this..<br /><br />Can the drive bellows be changed without removing the bell housing? Tha link above showed the shift and exhaust boot replacement...<br /><br />I understand that every seal and gasket needs to be replaced...have a gasket kit on the way.<br /><br />....why not the shift rail seal as well? As I mentioned above, this looks like the bellows leak is from the water passage o-ring or "shift rail seal" into the housing ..then by the large rubber seal into the bellows. White crud , sandy whitish lime looking deposits are all in that area, (which I assume should not be that way) and under the lower part of the rubber seal..as if it had been leaking by in that area.<br /><br />Is that always this way...or something?<br /><br />thanks...Stan

 

[Stan's Customs]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

After looking again Don it appears that the bearing does have a race on it when it is twisted out. Could you look at www.mercstuff.com under How DO I...and see if that is different that what you are refering to?<br /><br />Thank..Stan

 

[Don S]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

Could you look at www.mercstuff.com under How DO I...and see if that is different that what you are refering to?

I don't need to go look at it, they do give that as an option, but.....if you read on page 4A-12 in the link to the service manual I gave you, about the bearing being a matched set and it shouldn't be changed that way. But if want to use the "Get By" method of boat repair, go for it.<br /><br />Regarding the shift shaft seal, it was never designed to prevent water from getting into the cavity of the shift cable, if you have a problem of water getting into the shift cable area, replace it, if not, leave it alone, it's not a problem. Besides, you have to take things apart that isn't needed to pull the drive for inspections yearly. But any of the gaskets and orings that are exposed when the drive is pulled off, needs to be replaced. They are NOT reusable.<br /><br />

Can the drive bellows be changed without removing the bell housing?

NOPE!<br />Also, there is no reason in the world to replace the trim sender or limit switch if they work. Even if they don't work the trim will still go up and down. Unless you have an extra $100's laying around. I also don't get excited over replacing an exhaust bellows unless they are bad. They cannot cause leaks to the inside of the boat like the ujoint and shift cable bellows can. Same with the shift cable. If it's smooth and easy moving, there is no reason in the world to replace it, again, unless you like spending money.

 

[Stan's Customs]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

Thanks Don..<br /><br />I don't do the "Get By" method...that's just what the other link showed, they too, are supposedly experts. Just making sure we are on the same page...besides that, it uses real easy to see pictures. Thought you might have use for it in other post for people like myself, since you are on here all the time.....much easier to comprehend than any I have seen elsewhere....provided you agreed with the information of course. <br /><br />Sorry I didn't make myself clear...there is or has been water in the shift cable cavity. <br /><br /> Now ...you said that shift shaft seal was never designed to prevent water from getting into that area...but if it is replace it? Does that mean that it will stop water from getting into the shift cable cavity even though it is not designed to prevent water from getting into that area...? <br /><br />And once again what about the u-joints...they are somewhat rusty, but tight...relace 'em... or grease 'em and leave 'em? Not using the "Get By" method of course.<br /><br />Last..Since there was a little water in the drive bellows, you recommend replacing them, even if I don't see any signs of splits or water intrusion, other than the big rubber seal.....Replacing drive bellows and the shift bellows is important, and just the smart thing to do. (plus they are so much fun..he he!)<br /><br />And all exposed seals and gaskets...Correcto mundo...

 

[Don S]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

As far as the merstuff site goes, they have a great site. The Method B site is the one to use. I even bought the Gimbal Bearing Removal Tool from them and it works great, but I also do at least 2 a week during the summer and it works on OMC, Merc, and The Volvo SX style.<br /><br />

there is or has been water in the shift cable cavity.

Then by all means replace it if it's leaking.<br />It will keep most of the water out of that area, and especially the exhaust and water mixture that could pressurize the cavity and force water out the shift cable at the engine. Even with new busings and seal, there is still enough movement in the shift rod to allow leaks.<br /><br />And like I said before, I have replaced lots of bellows and couldn't find the leaks in the old ones, and the big ring looked good also. but after replacement the leaks stopped. That bellows is a lot cheaper than gimbal bearings, ujoints and drives. The drive does not have a seal to prevent water from getting into the drive at the ujoint seal. that's the job of the bellows. Did you check the drive for water??????<br />There are also no seals on the ujoints to prevent water from getting in them. If water is in there, they will start rusting and will eventually need replaced.<br />If I find water in the bellows that has been there for a while, the gimbal bearing, the ujoints, and the bellows gets replaced. I also pull the yoke out of the drive and replace the seal and clean the yoke where the seal rides. Once it gets rusty, it grinds on the seal like sandpaper until it starts leaking and without the lube, you loose the bearings and.......... well, you see how it goes downhill from there.

 

[Stan's Customs]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

10-4 Don...<br /><br />...and yes, I did check the drive for water. It had about 2 teaspoons of separated water when I drained it. The rest was old black cruddy oil that obviously had not been changed in a long while.<br /><br />Thanks for the help ...Stan

 

[DHPMARINE]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

Stan's Customs,<br /><br />I have to stand behind my earlier recommendation of replacing all that stuff,if it's original,and hasn't been piece-mealed over the years.Obviously if the exhaust bellows or trim switches were just done,you don't need them now.<br /><br />But to address water in the shift cable area,providing the outdrive gaskets and o-rings are okay.... try the #23-805041A2 shift shaft bushing.It has seals built in to prevent water intake.Service Bulletin 91-25 if you have access.<br /><br />DHP

 

[Stan's Customs]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

Hello DHP...and a good morning <br /><br />Thanks for your input...that's why I asked , so I could formulate a consensus of opinions...<br /><br />I don't know the history of the boat ...However I bought it cheap enough to use as a parts boat if it is too expensive to get in good shape. It won't get used over 3 times a year ...bought it mostly for a family reunion toy for our younger generation.<br /><br />From my examination ...and I don't have many to compare too, the bellows etc. are pliable and seem to be in decent shape. The u-joints are "real smooth". The gimbal is rough..and I heard it is the reason I pulled the drive.<br /><br />It looks like to me that the problem area is the shift shaft bushing.... I was just trying to see if that was ever the "only" problem ... Evidently that is not the case from these recent post...and the archives.. Replacing "just" the exposed seals and what I see as the likely villan (shaft seal), is just not done, if there is water in the bellows.... For all the reasons that Don , yourself and others has pointed out. I'm sure that advise is the correct way too...just askin'<br /><br />However, I wouldn't be the least surprised if the shift shaft seal was the total problem on this one.... and I'd bet my best hat, that I could replace every thing on the drive and still have a leak if I didn't address that too. Soo..thanks for the part # I was wondering where to get that little bit of info...<br /><br />About the service bulletin.. I don't know where to get access..?? I'm curious about the content though, if you remember what it said ..<br /><br /><br />Thanks again...Stan

 

[garycinn]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

Originally posted by Stan's Customs:<br /> About the service bulletin.. I don't know where to get access..?? I'm curious about the content though, if you remember what it said ..<br />Thanks again...Stan

http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Bullet/91/91_25.pdf

 

[Don S]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

Originally posted by Stan's Customs:<br /> <br />However, I wouldn't be the least surprised if the shift shaft seal was the total problem on this one.... and I'd bet my best hat, that I could replace every thing on the drive and still have a leak if I didn't address that too.

Stan, the shift shaft seal would only allow water into the shift cable cavity. Not into the bellows area. The large quad ring (a in the picture below) is what prevents water from getting to the bellows. Even if the paper gasket and the shift shaft seals were completely missing.<br />Go ahead and change the shift shaft seals and bushings if you want, but don't replace them expecting them to be the reason water got into the bellows.<br /><br />

 

[Stan's Customs]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

I under stand that Don...<br /><br />My very first post said...."The large seal that the outdrive slides thru looks like it has been leaking into the bellows, on the bottom side...."<br />along with some more information regarding the definite indication of water in the shift cavity...white sandy crud etc..<br /><br />The big seal has a lot of that crud under "it", as if leaking by into the bellows.( just to the right of A in the diagram...it's loose with cruddy stuff between the big seal and the outer housing...but stuck tight every where else. Of course water has to get "into" the shift cavity before the big seal leaking is an issue. <br /><br />I also mentioned that I had just replaced a badly cracked manifold (steam) that might have a bearing on the issue..I was just fishin' for the source of water before I worried about replacing the big seal and/or bellows...Even if the big seal is good.. the u-joint seal in the gear case doesn't need to be wet either, as you pointed out earlier. Honestly the paper seal and the water passage o-ring looked like they were sealed, no leak tracks if you follw my meaning.(like head gasket leak by tracks or something.) <br /><br />I'm not doubting your advise , just want to be sure that part of the problem isn't overlooked.....If the big seal leaked and there is water in the shift cavity...looks to me like it could be the problem, but I sure don't pretend to know. Just looks that way to me...also there wasn't a whole lot of water in the bellows, about a tea cup I'd guess..<br /><br />I'm going to replace everything I imagine ...just doesn't look like there is a good way to isolate a leak in these things.

 

[Don S]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

Stan.<br />I was commenting on your pointing to the shift shaft seal as being the total problem...... it can't be, and you would end up loosing your best hat. <br /><br />

I wouldn't be the least surprised if the shift shaft seal was the total problem on this one.... and I'd bet my best hat

 

[Stan's Customs]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

OK Don ...<br /><br />for my continuing education,<br /><br />..... if the shift cavity has water in it from the shift rail seal and the big seal is obviously bad, why can't that be the total problem.....<br /><br /><br />Not being smart..I reall am trying to understand why...<br /><br />Stan...

 

[tommays]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

stan<br />i believe that the purpose of rubber gasket A is to seal the bellows area from the shift shaft area when the drive is installed<br /><br />i could be wrong but i think thats how it works<br /><br />tommays

 

[Stan's Customs]

Re: Alpha1..small amount of water in u-joint bellows

I believe that is right too Tom...<br /><br />I'm supposing that it could leak going or comming, depending which side water is present on....to the adjoining side.<br /><br />What I was thinking.. since the bellows looked so good.. was that the water was going into the bellows from the shift cavity...thru the big bad seal....big bad seal,hmmm..<br /><br />Now if the bellows looked bad (or looked good), and was leaking, there should "still" be "no" water in the shift cavity,right? (providing the big seal is tight..right...I guess??)<br /><br />I'm sure Don knows, I'm just puzzled...