Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

[starcraftkid]

I'm replacing a bunch of rivets in an old Lowe boat and when I went to order rivets there's a half dozen different grades listed.
Which do I need or can I use on an aluminum boat?

The local supplier sells only Universal head rivets with a small *** on the top, these translate into 2017-T4 rivets.
I tried a few in a piece of scrap and they set fine but I'm told these need to be heated first to reach full strength.
The others are dimpled on top, these are super hard to buck, they're super hard aluminum.

Which did they use at the factory?
What is best for replacement with both strength and type of aluminum to prevent electrolysis issues down the road?

 

[Georgesalmon]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

Not sure of hardness but one aluminum company I know uses 5052 rivets. Same material as the hull.

Maybe T-6?

 

[jigngrub]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

I personally prefer this method:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MA1-5NXjs&feature=related

It makes a 2 man job a 1 man job.

 

[Georgesalmon]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

Not crazy about closed end blind rivets in the hull bottom.

 

[Redwing4900]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

Not crazy about closed end blind rivets in the hull bottom.

I was curious why the closed end ones wouldn't be okay...I was thinking that would be exactly what you would want. Also, how do you seal each of those rivets?

 

[jigngrub]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

I was curious why the closed end ones wouldn't be okay...I was thinking that would be exactly what you would want. Also, how do you seal each of those rivets?

George doesn't like them as a personal preference, which he is perfectly entitled to.

You don't really need to seal the closed end blind rivets, they're self sealing. They're both vapor and waterproof, and used in aircraft building as well as boat building.

If you'll watch closely in the vid the installer dips the end of the rivet in some epoxy before installing it, this is just a little extra insurance for sealing.

 

[Georgesalmon]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

It is a personal preference, I admit that freely. However I was wondering why I have never seen closed end rivets used by any aluminum boat manufacturers. During many years of attending boat shows for my company I looked at a lot of aluminum boats. They do cost more initially but need 1/2 the labor to install and boat manufacturers could maybe save money by using them. You can't buy them in the same alloy as the original boat material for one. For two, they WILL loosen in time from the vibration and normal working of an aluminum hull. My personal preference came from several years as warranty manager at an aluminum boat manufacturer. During that time I had several repair boats that had sheared off some rivets from running aground or hitting something. Many came back with closed end rivets that were loose and some were also corroded. My son is currently one of the owners of the same company and they still see loose closed rivets on repair boats from time to time. These rivets were installed by the boat owner and I cannot know if they were installed correctly in the first place.

I know that the boat company I used to work for before I retired will sell you rivets and they are pretty cheap, however I don't know if Lowe does that. If they do I suspect that they would be the same material they have used forever. Have you called Lowe?

 

[jigngrub]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

You can get just about any kind of rivet made here:
http://www.rivetsonline.com/rivets-en.html

 

[djpeters]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

A closed end "pop" style rivet is not near as strong as a solid rivet. I wouldn't use them on the hull.

 

[jigngrub]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

A closed end "pop" style rivet is not near as strong as a solid rivet. I wouldn't use them on the hull.

So that's why they use them in aircraft manufacturing, because they aren't very strong?

Anyone that's ever used these rivets knows how strong they are , and the amount of effort it takes to set them... even with the heavy duty 2 handed setting tool.

Anyone that has drilled out one of these rivets also knows how strong they are and how they drill out just like a solid rivet.

These aren't your grandads rain gutter and downspout pop rivets, these rivets are very strong and expensive rivets that're used in marine and aircraft manufacturing... but not a lot of people know or realize that.

The main reason these rivets aren't used more in manufacturing is the cost, they cost 3 times more than regular solid rivets... and even with the labor it costs to install solid rivets, solid rivets are still cheaper than closed end blind rivets.

 

[djpeters]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

Well sounds like we are talking about two different things. Got a link or pic of your type? So are they solid all the way through like a solid rivet?

 

[Georgesalmon]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

This is fun! jigngrub would you please name any aluminum marine manufacturer that uses just one closed end vapor and liquid proof blind rivet below the water line on a hull during their normal manufacturing process?

 

[Bondo]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

Well sounds like we are talking about two different things. Got a link or pic of your type? So are they solid all the way through like a solid rivet?

Ayuh,... There's a few variations, it's still a rivet, 'n mandrel, but completely sealed...

I use 'em all the time on tinboats, 'n haven't had any problems, at all...

 

[jigngrub]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

This is fun! jigngrub would you please name any aluminum marine manufacturer that uses just one closed end vapor and liquid proof blind rivet below the water line on a hull during their normal manufacturing process?

If you'll read post #10 you'll see that I stated that the closed end blind rivet is more expensive than the solid rivet and that's why they're not used as much.

You know as well as I do that manufacturing will cut costs to stay competitive and there's no reason for them to use a more expensive component when they can use a cheaper one that'll do the same thing.

 

[Grandad]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

Based upon Bond-o's and jig's experiences, I think I would be inclined to use blind closed end pop rivets where I was unable to access the backside, but I'd still prefer to use original manufacturer's solid rivets where I have access, based upon my experience.

I don't want to pile onto a flaming match here, but this is an old chestnut. Each of us has had prior experiences with different rivets with varying results. Jig has made a statement that aircraft manufacturers use these, though not necessarily everywhere. George has made a request that jig provide an example of an aircraft manufacturer using these. Jig, you could put some skepticism to bed by providing the source of your information. Let's split this chestnut once and for all by substantiating where these rivets can be used. - Grandad

 

[djpeters]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

I still don't see how a pop rivet which is a thin tube with an internal mandrel and a thin head is stronger than a solid rivet with a nice thick head and tail.

 

[astor]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

instead of arguing based on opinions, the shear and tensile strength of blind rivets vs similar material solid rivets should be readily available. Who can find the numbers?

I'm personally using solid rivets. They are inexpensive and easy to use. I just bought 250 brazier head 5/32x3/8 solid rivets for~$16, which included shipping. I bought a rivet set tool on ebay for ~$12 shipped. and it fits in my $14 Harbor freight impact hammer, and I'm using a hunk of scrap steel for a bucking bar.

 

[starcraftkid]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

I was referring to solid, buck type rivets, not a closed end pop rivet. They offer several different head shapes, plus they come in various grades of aluminum.

The type I keep finding locally have a small raised *** on top, or dimpled heads. Those with a dimple are super hard to buck.
The choices are 5056, (so far I've only found those in a larger domed head), 2117, 2017-T4, and 2024-T4 are the other grades I find regularly.
The head type that matches best is referred to as a universal head, sort of a rounded but flattened pan head, The rivets with the small *** on top are soft but I keep reading that they need to be heated before installing etc.
The concerns are both strength and corrosion resistance, if I use the wrong grade of aluminum, won't the rivet experience dissimilar metal issues?

 

[djpeters]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

The solid rivets in our Starcrafts are Brazier Head and they are a soft alloy. The ones I used were 1100F from www.rivetsinstock.com

 

[jigngrub]

Re: Aluminum hull, what type of rivets?

Blind rivets in aircraft manufacturing:
http://www.helicoil.in/pop.htm

Vapor and liquidproof:
http://www.hitechfasteners.com/pop-landing.html

Closed end blind rivets come in 2 head styles, dome and countersunk.