Best guess: Source of water in oil?

[mvd2bze]

Last weekend, I bought a 1987 Galaxy Admiral 189 with a 130hp Merc Alpha One.
I brought a professional marine technician with me to inspect the engine/drive and hull, since my boat knowledge is limited to passengering/driving and assisting with outboard motor work (Evinrude Lark III, to be exact). Long story short, we missed water in the oil, and now I have what is probably a cracked block and more.

I'm hoping that I can describe the symptoms and folks with lots more experience than me can give a best-guess as to what happened here.

The previous owner has documentation of a winterization he paid $250 for last year.
He ran the boat three times this season to show to buyers.
I ran the boat for a few minutes without incident the day I bought it. (Since he said he had just run it, and the mater muffs were still attached, I didn't think to check the oil. (He had classic cars on the property in various states of restoration, so I trusted he knew not to run it low on oil, and did not consider the oil may be contaminated)
The bilge was showing traces of sludge, as was the transom plate.
Yesterday, in preparation for it's maiden voyage under my ownership, I connected the water muffs and checked the oil prior to start. I saw the oil wasn't just oil; it had some obvious traces of water in it.
After discussing the issue with my pro, we decided it might have been condensation and opted to start it up and check the oil after a minute (wishful thinking).
When the idle started to smooth out, I brought the revs up to about 2200rpm for a few seconds and planned to turn it off, when water from the PCV tube shot into the carb and stalled the motor.
When I checked the dip-stick, I found water about four times higher up on the stick than the "full" mark and the full extent of the problem washed over me.
I started the motor for another five seconds later to show my pro what was up, and also noticed oil/sludge pushing out behind the starter, probably from the rear main seal.

I have been in touch with the seller, and he has talked to his pro who winterized it and offered apologies and possible compensation. Due to his complete surprise, I am opting to trust him for the time-being and entertain the idea that something strange and not simply a cracked block is happening.

This leads me to my questions:

• Is there really anything other than a cracked block that could cause so much water to get into the crank case?
• Is it possible that high water hose pressure could cause any problem like this? (I know... grasping at straws)
• Can a head gasket be responsible for this, and structural integrity is still ok?

My pro also feels terrible about this, since I was "diligent" and wouldn't purchase a bout without him looking at it, and he missed this. He has given me a project boat of his (1990 Sunbird 17' with a 3.0 Merc, but it needs manifold and other external bits, and mine might be no good as donor parts. My whole family is depressed, because we all set this and next weekend aside as our family boat time. We were so excited to be out on the water, we are hoping for some miracle. That said, I used to work on cars, and the tech isn't so different that I am deluded into thinking you can have so much water in a motor that it squirts out the PCV hoses under pressure and just change the oil and be ok.

I will begin disassembly today, if the rain lets up, but can anyone offer any thoughts?

I'm really wishing I had shopped for a closed-cooling motor right now. Oh, and checked the frickin' oil before purchase!!!

Thanks for your educated assistance/opinions!

 

[Bondo]

I will begin disassembly today,

Ayuh,.... My best guess is ya got a cracked block or head, or both,....

Don't tear it apart, but drain the water from the block, isolate the block, 'n pressure test it with compressed air,....

You'll Hear the leak, follow the sound, to the cracks,....

 

[mvd2bze]

Ayuh,.... My best guess is ya got a cracked block or head, or both,....

Don't tear it apart, but drain the water from the block, isolate the block, 'n pressure test it with compressed air,....

You'll Hear the leak, follow the sound, to the cracks,....

Is there a sticky with the pressure test you are referring to? Not sure what you mean when you say "don't tear it apart, but isolate the block".

Thanks for your help!

 

[Bondo]

Not sure what you mean when you say "don't tear it apart, but isolate the block".

Ayuh,.... The block is only part of the entire coolin' system, 'n ya only wanta pressure test the Block,...

Ya need to block off the inlets, 'n outlets of the Block, to pressure test it,.... aka; Isolate the block,....

There might be a thread on it in Don'S Adults Only section,.... Click the link in my signature, 'n have a look,....

 

[johnzonh]

I'm also thinking riser or gaskets. Had a similar situation last year with my 3.7 with a solid block

Found out the bad riser gasket allowed all my coolant into the manifold and into the bores. Added about 4 quarts of watery coolanty oily yuck sludge to my pan. Consequently came shooting out the breather at the top of the valve cover

Cleaned it out...honed the riser flat and put in new gaskets all the way around... And enjoyed a summer on the lake! Good luck!

 

[mvd2bze]

Pulled the head today. As far as I can tell, the head gasket and manifold aren't to blame. Exhaust/intake ports look dry like they should. plugs are clean, as are pistons/cylinders. Whatever is wrong happened recently, since all valve gear and top-end parts are still corrosion-free.

Last thing to do is pull the pan and look closely. I assumed from the beginning that was the case, but I have been hoping for a simple fix.
On the other hand, it appears that all of my parts should be a quick swap onto his motor, though we have to pull both motors to swap out his OMC Cobra for my Alpha one... or put his motor in mine with the Alpha. Either way, I'm stuck removing two motors. Since his boat is in better shape than mine, I think we'll end up doing the out-drive swap, which would entail two motors removed and a swap of all transom-mounted parts. Wish the OMC/Merc parts were more simlar, but, oh-well. At least I have a spare!!

 

[HT32BSX115]

Pulled the head today. As far as I can tell, the head gasket and manifold aren't to blame.

What was the results of the pressure check you did before pulling the head?

 

[bruceb58]

Pulled the head today.

I hope you did a pressure test before you pulled the head.

 

[mvd2bze]

I have no means for a pressure check. I wish I did. The closest I can come is a turkey baster. If I still had all my automotive tools...

One thing: on the "Adults" mercruiser section, there is a bulletin from Mercury saying that water in the sump can come from a manifold gasket. Can anyone explain (since I can't picture the circuit) how a bad manifold gasket could introduce water to oil?

 

[vetting]

I recently went through the same thing. Mine was a cracked head as a result of water coming back up through the exhaust and sitting on a hot head after I had the boat back at the slip. I had water in only one cylinder as a result and we found which one it was by disconnecting the spark plug wire from the coil to the distributor. We then took one spark plug out at a time, cranked the motor over to see if water would shoot out, compression tested the cylinder, put that spark plug back in, and then went onto the next one. I didnt have any corrosion on any of my internals so there was no way to tell which head or cylinder was letting water in without the test. Either way, there is a crack somewhere or at least a bad exhaust/riser gasket or head gasket. You should have at least did a compression test on the motor while you still had the head on. Now you kind of have to backtrack to figure out what the issue is.

 

[mvd2bze]

The motor runs so well, I ruled out the water in a cylinder possibility. I mean, eventually, the water jetting up in the carb from the valve cover caused some rough running, but it ran perfectly until that. Also, now that the head is off, I can see all the intake/exhaust ports are clean and dry. All valves have the same amount of carbon on them, and the same color spark plugs -- all good. The last step is to pull the block onto the stand and flip it over to find the crack. If I could trust the cylinder won't deform, I'd have it welded. Maybe I still can.

The advice I am getting from my cousin (with the spare motor) is to sideline this motor and just work on getting my outdrive on his donor motor in the Sunbird. Almost August and I haven't been in a boat this season, yet.

I'll update this thread as I get more info.

 

[bruceb58]

You will likely never find the crack since it is likely internal to the block. Now you will never know. Time to throw away the block.

 

[mvd2bze]

Ahh, you mean in a space between an oil galley and the water jacket?

 

[bruceb58]

Ahh, you mean in a space between an oil galley and the water jacket?

Yes...which is why you want to pressure test before you take the head off.

 

[HT32BSX115]

With the head on, (with a good head gasket & torqued/sealed) pressurizing the cooling system to 15psi or so reveals the crack as a hiss or bubbles on the outside once you splash a little soapy water on the outside of the block.

If the cracks are in the inside, you hear the hissing in the oil fill port etc.

Once you remove the head, you eliminate the ability to pressure check the block. It's not worth it to rebuild an engine that hasn't been pressure checked when you suspect freeze cracking.

You might be able to put the old head gasket back on but an old head gasket will sometimes leak if re-installed and pressurized.

So, the only sure-fire ways to verify the block is ok is either to install a new head gasket and pressure check it, send it to a machine shop and let them do it or put it back together and HOPE it doesn't leak.

The downside to putting it back together is spending all the money getting a rebuild gasket set, rings, head job, etc and putting it all together only to find out that after running, the oil ends up "milky"

That's why we were urging you to pressure check it before teardown....................


Now, since it's apart, I would send it to a reputable machine shop and have them pressure check the block an head then bore/hone and deck the block as necessary and re-surface the head. Then you know what you have going back together.

You can just pretend the block is ok and put it all back together but you'll also be right back at "square-one" if you get milky oil after running.

It's a coin toss to be sure but most of us here would bet on the cracked block......

Sorry about that........


Rick

 

[mvd2bze]

Well, my first follow-up question was to ask what the procedure was to pressure test it.
All I've found in the adult section is mention of it.
Nowhere was I able to find: "To pressure test a open cooling 3.0L, clamp these lines and apply pressure to this hose." When I looked at my motor, I couldn't imagine how I would restrict flow in the exhaust manifold from simply flowing out, and probably into my intake/exhaust.

I also had trouble locating a water flow diagram but eventually did find page 6A-11 of (http://www.boatfix.com/merc/techbk/94/94hg6a.pdf), which seems to show a hot water feed to the manifold by the upper hose from the water distribution block. I was under the false impression that water exited the head through passages in the side of the head, not the front.

I don't by any means mean to imply it's anyone's other than my fault, and I appreciate the advice you all tried to give. I just had trouble finding the information pertaining to my motor, since the years seemed ambiguous to me.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Well, my first follow-up question was to ask what the procedure was to pressure test it.
All I've found in the adult section is mention of it.

Well, it's not really hard. You treat the block and head as an air "tank" with several holes............just plug up all the cooling system "holes" using simple plumbing fittings, hose, etc........connect a valve, all available at Home Depot or similar.......

Put a 0-30 psi gage on the block side of the valve, connect an air pressure source (like a compressor) and pump it up to about 15-20 psi. Close the valve, turn the compressor off, and listen for leaks.

When I looked at my motor, I couldn't imagine how I would restrict flow in the exhaust manifold from simply flowing out, and probably into my intake/exhaust.

You just isolate the exhaust manifold (by disconnecting the cooling water hose to it) and riser since it's not really part of the engine cooling system.


Water in the oil really cannot come from the manifold or riser since the running engine just blows the water out with the exhaust and there's no other path to the oil for cooling water from either the manifold or riser.......

At this point, you probably need to have a machine shop pressure check the head and block for you if you want to use either. I wouldn't put it back together without knowing that both are not cracked.......

You could try to put the head (and used gasket) back on for a pressure check, it but it's very possible that the head gasket could still leak..........

 

[flipbro]

I was getting water in my oil and it was a failed riser gasket..in the end

 

[HT32BSX115]

I was getting water in my oil and it was a failed riser gasket..in the end

I had the same problem (both risers) with my previous 460 King Kobra. But the amount of water that actually makes it into the oil is very little since it has to get past the rings, and it's usually only 2 cyls (that have open valves when the engine shuts down) .

If you subsequently run the engine immediately after or even the next day, the water evaporates quickly once the engine makes it to operating temp.

Block and cyl cracks usually result in a continuous flow directly into the oil while the engine is running. And you don't always see it right away, or until you check the oil (or the emulsion starts "boiling" out of the oil fill or breather!)