Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

johnk86

Seaman Apprentice
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Jan 4, 2004
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I have a 1988 21' Proline that I bought a couple of years back. It came with a Johnson outboard (which is now trash) on a bracket. The bracket looked like it may have been aftermarket because I would see where the original drain holes were and its a seperage piece of fiberglass over the transom area where the motor might have gone. Is nicely finished. But when I run the boat, it tends to porpoise in the slightest bit of choppy water, especially if I have the motor trimmed up at all. I usually run with it trimmed all the way down. When its trimmed up much, it tends to "bounce" and when the bow goes down the engine up-rpms noticibly because the load it lighter I suppose and then bow goes back up and the rpms go down again. Repeat and repeat. I'm wondering if the bracket holds the motor too far above the bottom line of the boat? I have some pictures so you can see what the bracket looks like in the links below. I need to make a decision to either replace the engine and keep the boat or get a new boat and engine. This bracket is the only question for me about the boat. Its a big decision though. Any insight you can provide would be appreciated.<br /> http://users.rcn.com/kusterer/boat1.jpg <br /> http://users.rcn.com/kusterer/boat2.jpg <br /> http://users.rcn.com/kusterer/boat3.jpg <br /> http://users.rcn.com/kusterer/boat4.jpg <br /><br />Maybe trim-tabs would solve the problem? I don't know :(
 

TPD211

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Dec 31, 2003
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360
Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

Hokiepoq,<br /><br />I am a newb to boating and no way knowledgable. <br />The boats I have seen set up like yours with the extension allow it to turn on a dime, thats all I know about the extension. :confused:
 

snapperbait

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Aug 20, 2002
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5,754
Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

The thing I don't like about brackets is they can cause the boats weight/balance to be so out of wack that many times you'll have to do some serious work trying to move weight forward to compensate, even after you've exhausted every other feasable alternative like trim tabs, engine height adjustment, different props, and so on.. <br /><br />Trim tabs would probably help, but first I would start by raising or lowering the engine one bolt hole at a time, and shifting any weight that you can towards the bow to see if it helps..
 

quint

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Jan 6, 2004
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Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

I had a similar problem with a starcraft and a johnson outboard. When I rebuilt the transom I added a thin skin of aluminum on both sides of the transom and over the top edge. When I put the motor on and test drove the boat I had a real problem with porpoising. After many tries I finally added shims that pitched the motor just a little and it fixed the problem, I could'nt believe it the motor was just a little out from it's original position but just a bit caused me grief, BIG TIME! Give it a try. <br /><br /> Quint
 

Cannon

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Jan 7, 2004
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Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

Looking at the pictures it seems than the bracket has a more severe angle that the transom of the boat. Porpoising is usually caused by too much weight aft. You may be able to compensate for that by shimming the engine bracket so that you can obtain more negative trim.<br /> The same will apply with a new angine. More so if it is heavier.
 

johnk86

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Jan 4, 2004
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Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

Thanks for the replies guys. Gives me a lot to work with. Now another question that comes up is: should the angle of the bracket be in line with the kiel line? Maybe this bracket was made for a more slanted transom. Good advice you guys gave. Much appreciated.
 

Cannon

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Jan 7, 2004
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Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

Achieving the same angle would be a good start. There are angle shims available for outboards.<br /><br />Here is a place to check for shim materials.<br /><br /> http://www.bobsmachine.com/
 

Knightgang

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Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

What is the plate on the bottom back end of the transom bracket. It looks like it blocks the engine from trimming all the way down. <br /><br />I would adjust the angle of the engine mount bracket to be equal to the transom and then put on a set of Smart Tabs. I think this will take care of your problem. It definetly is not enough of a problem to get rid of the boat.<br /><br />Knightgang
 

johnk86

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Jan 4, 2004
Messages
39
Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

Thanks for the quick replies! I never really took notice of the place on the bracket. It was on it when I purchased the boat. I will definitely take a closer look at it and how the cavitation plate lines up with the kiel when the boat is trimmed all the way down. I assume it should be just about in line with the kiel when the bracket is shimmed/spaced out properly. I really appreiate you indicating that its not a "chronic problem" that would warrent getting rid of the boat. I'll work on it some more and post back my results. Meanwhile, off to look for a replacement engine! Excitement! :) Cost :( <br />Thanks again!
 

Maximerc

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Jun 26, 2003
Messages
292
Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

I may be all wet , but some people put extensions on there boat to get rid of bounce. I wonder what the boat would do if the engine was mounted on the hull?
 

vidar

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Jun 30, 2003
Messages
165
Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

HI! i got a 21 inch bracket on a 20 feet hull an had to lift engine 5 inch above hull bottom to get waterflow on motor right... buut also prob w swamping engine when slowing down....but workes great on plane.. :) :rolleyes:
 

Jdeagro

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Jul 30, 2003
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Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

HokiePog:<br /><br />Porpoising is a very common problem with I/O or Outboard powered boats because the weight balance is far aft of center. In most cases trimming the motor to a negative trim angle helps minimize the problem because, the prop is now pushing upward on the transom which rotates the boat down in the front. In other words you are using the prop to create lift on the stern and pressure on the bow. <br />Balance is the key to boat performance, and some are more out of balance than others. <br /><br />I am no expert on brackets, but they do change the balance or axis - toward the rear. The bow comes up easily because the distance from the axis point to the bow creates a nice long leverage arm, and any amount of upward pressure ((i.e.: wave) in the front will push the bow up. What goes up will come down, and reentry into the water will be deeper than the mean running angle so the water pushes the bow back up. That is why it seems difficult to stop the porpoising once it starts. A quick test of this theory is that you can lift the tong of the trailer but not the back.<br /><br />when you look at your boat and most others from the side it is evident that the transom is designed so that the motor can be tilted under the boat. The manufacturer knows that the boat needs the help of the prop to get on plane, and to control porpoising. Using the prop to help the boat plane is not so bad but using it to control porpoising is really inefficient because the prop is force to run through the water at an angle which slips the outer edges of prop. Loss of prop bite = loss of fuel economy and top speed.<br /><br />The engine bracket usually allows for more cockpit room, and some say it extends the hull length which may make the boat faster. Not sure about that. In looking at your pictures, the bottom of the bracket angles up at the rear, which changes the hull design to look like a "rocking horse". This could facilitate the porpoising.<br /><br />After you have re-powered, and making sure that the motor is at the correct height, test it again. Keep in mind that the balance may change again with the new motor, along with prop characteristics. My guess is that the boat will still porpoise. Adding trim tabs will allow you to lift the stern (putting pressure on the bow) without using the prop angle. If you use hydraulic or electric (helm controlled) tabs you should keep in mind that the amount of deployment needs to be carefully adjusted, other wise you may be adjusting the motor trim to compensate for too much stern lift (not efficient either. They will also need to be adjusted in relationship to the boat speed. This is not hard - just takes some practice.<br /><br />Someone mentioned Smart Tabs, and the first thing you should know is that I have a proprietary interest. That said, they have been designed for boats up to 22 ft, and 240 HP. The principle is somewhat different. Instead of using hydraulics or electric actuators they use a nitrogen gas fill actuator. The tabs are held in the deployed position at rest, and as the boat increases speed and goes on plane, the tabs are automatically pushed up to the horizontal position. In this position they continue to be under pressure, which is the pressure needed to control the porpoising. Since the system is active, the position of the tabs will change in coordination with the water pressure ( speed, current, weight balance etc.) Since the system is adjustable upon installation (or after installation and testing) the correct amount of running pressure is easily achieved.<br /><br />Keep in mind that the more efficient you make the hull the better the economy and the less wear on the engine. I hope this has helped.
 

Knightgang

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Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

Hokie,<br /><br />Check out that plate on the bottom of the bracket that I mentioned. I think it will have to be removed so that you can acheive negative trim when needed.<br /><br />Remember, when you get a replacement motor and go to mount it, the rule of thumb is the cavitation plate on the motor should be about 1" above keel (with the cavitation plate trimmed to run parrallel with the keel) for every foot the motor is behind the bracket. If your bracket is 36" long, then your cavitation plate should be about 3" above the keel of the boat. You may need to adjust it one hole up or down from this to acheive maximum performance, but that is the place to start.<br /><br />I hope your engine search goes well. I do not know NautiJohn, but I have researched the Smart Tabs and read his posts, and if I ever decide to put tabs on my boat, it will be smart tabs.<br /><br />Good luck, and I hoep your refit goes well.
 

johnk86

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Jan 4, 2004
Messages
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Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

Thank you all for your help. Its invaluable. That's great information to work with and explains a lot of what has been going on. Your information is much, much appreciated! :)
 

mkdool

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Jan 8, 2004
Messages
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Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

It is good to hear from civilization, I live in Yorktown but am currently working in northern Minnesota(Brrrrr). I have an 86 23' proline w/a with an outboard on a bracket and it appears yours is the same one. I believe the manufacturer is Springfield Drive and should have their name in the casting on the inside of the well. I would bet money yours is a factory bracket as mine is. As for the fiberglass it may be the sign of a repair. With the weight of the motor hanging 2' back,under power and trailering there is a lot of force pushing in on the transom at the bottom of the bracket. I put a band-aid on last season to get out for rockfish season but this year with the help of a friend removed the motor and bracket, repaired the glass and made an aluminum plate to help distribute the stress. Being an 88 this may have happened to yours as well. I don't seem to have a problem with handling and like the bracket setup, lots of aft room. Good luck listen up for Slick Kam when you head out of Bull Island, I need to get back to some water that isn't frozen 3' thick.
 

johnk86

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Jan 4, 2004
Messages
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Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

Slick Kam, great to hear from someone from my neck of the woods. Great information on the bracket. By the way, do you know what the maximum weight motor that can be put on that bracket? I'm getting in touch with Proline to see what the max motor weight is for the boat, but I'm sure that will include the bracket. Needless to say, I bought this boat used and do not have any kind of owners manual. My motor broke catastrophically a few weeks ago and I'm looking to repower to an HPDI engine and they weigh about 70 lbs more than the old Johnson I had on there (400lbs). Great if you knew that number; wouldn't want to put too much weight on it. Thanks and I'll keep an ear out for you on the water after you return from the great white north! Stay warm!
 

johnk86

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Jan 4, 2004
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Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

Just talked to Proline and they don't have that information for that year regarding max weight of motor, only 200hp max. If anybody knows anymore, I would appreciate knowing. Thanks.
 

mkdool

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Jan 8, 2004
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Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

Most new 2 stoke 200hp motors weigh close to 450lbs and doubt in 88 that they were any less and may have been little more, so 470 probably isn't too much though you may sit a little lower in the water. I believe hp rating is most important factor. I dont know what hp you are thinking about, but I have a friend in Dandy who has an 86 21' Proline w/a with a 140hp, 2nd owner, 1st was his father who I could ask what kind of performance he gets from it. Mine has a 91 200hp and I can get to about 40 mph with 90 gal and 2 people. <br /><br />I would Highly recommend thinking about a fabing a plate for the transom while you have the motor off. I used 1/4" aluminum and it was pretty simple and looks great, although the good aluminum primer and paint were expensive. It also allowed me to reseal all of the bracket mounting bolts which were a source of water wicking behind the glass before any serious rot started. If you are interested I could get a picture of what we did to post.<br /><br />Good luck, hope you like the boat, I am very happy with mine although like you had a motor disintegrate shortly after buying it. Would have loved to have new power but rolled the dice with a used one, so far so good.
 

walleyehed

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Jun 29, 2003
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6,767
Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

I haven't seen it posted above, but with the engine as far back as it is with your transom extension, the position of the cav plate in refference to the bottom of the boat is irrelevant. What you need to know is where is the cav plate in relation to the water-line on plane.<br /> In this case, I don't think you have a problem with weight, I think you have an issue with engine height, and trim angle.....<br />You say the RPM goes up when the nose comes down......that in itself tells me you possibly have way too much up trim. <br />Need to know where the water-line is on the lower unit at speed......the water isn't flush, or parallel with the bottom of the boat that far back.....<br /><br />EDIT: Slick Kam, what is the alum plate for??? are you talking about building wedges??
 

JasonJ

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Aug 20, 2001
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4,163
Re: Can a bracket on a boat be a performance problem?

Walleye, I think the plate is reinforcment to go between the motor and transom, to spread load maybe?
 
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