Choosing Fiberglass Supplies (long)

PatJ

Cadet
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
13
I am getting ready to start making decisions and buying fiberglass supplies. I am re-doing the floor and stringers in my 77 Fiberform 18'.<br /><br />The way the boat was built before:<br />The stringers (2) look like they are 2x6 wood. They were held in with chopped glass that went about halfway up the side of the wood. They were not encased. They were not bonded to the hull with epoxy or anything. Then came some kind of plywood floor, maybe 1/2", on the stringers with no mechanical fasteners. On top of that was ~1/8" layer of either chopped glass or a glass mat. The foam, I'm guessing 4 pound, was everywhere. The boat ran last year, so I guess it could be said it lasted 25+ years. Another 25 would be great, because if I'm around then, this boat will be the last thing on my mind.<br /><br />The choices are getting confusing to me on where to proceed.<br /><br />What I am wanting to do is make new 2x6 stringers and set them on the floor where the old ones were. Then I would fiberglass them to the floor with maybe 2 layers of poly fiberglass on 10 oz plain weave cloth, I would encase them. The fiberglass would overlap the floor about 3 or 4 inches on either side of the stringer. I decided on poly fiberglass because that's what the rest of the boat is built with and that is the only thing left of it that was good.<br /><br />Then I would build the floor out of plywood, undecided if it will be "marine" plywood, 1/2". I am undecided on how I would treat the bottom of the plywood, would a coat of poly resin do anything or just break off? Then the plywood would go on the stringers with no mechanical fastener. Over that I was thinking I would do 2 layers of 10 oz plain weave cloth. After that's done I would add the 4 pound foam. <br /><br />Are there any suggestions for improvment here? I understand that epoxy, bi-axiel cloth, epoxy stringer to floor, etc is superior, but is what I am planning already better than the way it was done before? I mean, weather the boat lasts 25 more years or 125 more years really makes no difference to me. What I am trying to say is I want it to be "good" and "right," but I don't want to spend more than I have to.<br /><br />Thanks in advance for any suggestions.<br /><br />Pat
 

E. E.

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Messages
84
Re: Choosing Fiberglass Supplies (long)

Pat, I am also replacing my transom, 5 stringers and floor. Had I known how good that wood was, I'd have removed the bad 6-8" of rotten wood and scabbed a piece on the stern end of each stringer where bad wood was and grinded/scuffed down the old glass and recoated. I had 2 each 1" by 6" and 8" boards and 1 each 10" board for my stringers. I will be doing the same on stringers #1, 3 and 5 but stringers #2 and 4 will be 2" boards for additional strength and my own peace of mind. Mine had mat on the floor on each side of every stringer by about 3-4 inches, up the side and over the top. I will follow these same steps. It lasted 37 years with poly and like you, if it last me 20 years, I'll be more than satisfied. It will already be more structurally sound than before. My decking will be 5/8" because I'm placing an infloor gas tank between stringers #2 & 4 under the new console so I want a little more strength on that span over the tank. Your plans sound a lot like mine and I hope we are on the right path.<br /><br />Here's mine<br /> http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/skibarge1967 <br /><br />Good luck!
 

snapperbait

Vice Admiral
Joined
Aug 20, 2002
Messages
5,754
Re: Choosing Fiberglass Supplies (long)

My opinion.. When in doubt, overbuild it.. That does'nt necesarily mean spending a bunch of extra cash either... <br /><br />Epoxy.. Polyester.. either one will do the job.. don't really matter so much... (Crab Bait just had a "poxy" hissy fit) :p j/k Crabby<br /><br />For example.. Fit and stick/glue them stringers down (thickened epoxy or even polyester) to the hull before you glass em' in... Makes a huge difference...<br /><br />Completely glass over the stringers, not just halfway up the sides... You'll spend a bit more for supplies there, but not much more, and again, big difference... <br /><br />Ditch the 10oz cloth... That stuff has no business in a boat, especially where structural integrety is involved, like stringers... Use two layers of 1708 bi-ax followed up by a layer or two of heavy mat...<br /><br /> 2" x whatever size" kiln dried Douglas fir is great for stringers.. Usually can get very good straight knot free pieces at your local lumber joint, w/o costing an arm and a leg...<br /><br />The floor... Plywood.. Marine is good, and there is another grade thats just as good for a little less$$$ (can't remember the grade)... If you go with polyester, use a layer of heavy mat on the bottom of the floor followed by brushing on a thick coat of gelcoat.. That'll seal it up plenty good.. Pay particular attention too the edges of the plywood.. coat the edges real good.. <br /><br />Stick that floor down to the stringers with some 3M 5200 or some thickened epoxy for a glue, and use plenty of screws too (screws are cheap).. Tape the edges of the floor too the sides witha layer of bi-ax, or just use plenty of mat... A couple layers of mat on the top of the floor is plenty.. The glass on top of the floor is really only there as a protective layer for the wood...<br /><br />4lb foam is overkill.. 2lb foam is fine...<br /><br />Good luck Gentlemen... :)
 

crab bait

Captain
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Messages
3,831
Re: Choosing Fiberglass Supplies (long)

well, anything's an improvement an SNAPPER told you stra8.. an i do agree on everthin'.. <br /><br />but polyester resin is not a real glue an truley doesn't deep bond fiberglass to wood .. also polyester has mininum rot resistance .. mite keep h20 out,, but lets spores in to do there dirty work..<br /><br />epoxy dose cost more.. no doubt.. but in a project like this,, another 100 bucks spent good is priceless.. <br /><br />i see no need in totally coverin' the stringers in cloth.. what purpose does it serve..??<br /><br /> an cloth,, no matter how thick or thin,, will NEVER adhere/conform to/around 90 deg.angles.. be it inside or outside angles.. <br /><br />the strenght of the cloth ( altho be it bi-axial ) is at the hull & stringer juction.. 8 inch piece.. layed half ( 4in ) on the hull .. an half ( 4in) up the side of stringer.. <br /><br />as long as the rest of the stringer is encapsulated with epoxy.. it's sealed an good-to-go..<br /><br /><br />the ply in question is A-B grade exterior doug fir ply.. almost as good an awhole lot cheaper.. <br /><br />home centers don't carry it.. go to a real lumber yard..<br /><br />mix up epoxy an add fillers to it to make a peanut butter.. spread it on the tops an lay floor down..
 

CTD

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Messages
234
Re: Choosing Fiberglass Supplies (long)

From my experience for a boat that size epoxy will cost you about $100 more than poly if you buy it in a large quanity from a place like U.S Composites. It will be twice as strong, more waterproof, gives you more working time and dosn't smell as bad. I used 3 2lb foam kits on my 18 ft 7 inch boat and came up about a quart short and I used what I could of the old foam that was still good. I think 4 lb is overkill. If your using 2X lumber for stringers they will give the strength so you don't need to cover completly but a thin layer of glass will help seal them. Where the floor ties into the hull is a structural joint, it braces the hull and distributes stresses so use a layer of biax or woven roving there too.
 

ThomWV

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Messages
701
Re: Choosing Fiberglass Supplies (long)

I've gotta agree. I would use epoxy only and wouldn't give polyester a second thought. I know polyester can be had anywhere for less than $25 a gallon whereas a gallon of epoxy (resin and hardner) is going to run you three times that much, but its worth every dime. Polyester simply does not bond well to wood and I've never seen it hold well on any plywood. Epoxy is the only way to go. Its only down side is that you have to clean off the amine if you go past 20~24 hours between applications.<br /><br />Thom
 

crab bait

Captain
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Messages
3,831
Re: Choosing Fiberglass Supplies (long)

yes,, but NOT if you use a 1 to 1 ratio epoxy as from [URL=http://www.clark craft.com<br /><br />there's no need to sand after cure ..
 

PatJ

Cadet
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
13
Re: Choosing Fiberglass Supplies (long)

Thanks so much for the advice.<br /><br />So bonding the stringers to the floor, either with epoxy or 5200 is money well spent. 1708 Bi-ax cloth on the stringers and around the edge of the floor is money well spent. On the field of the floor I can just use mat? Should I use 2 layers of something thinner or 1 layer of something thicker? What weights of mat would be good for this?<br /><br />Thanks again everyone, I really appreciate the help.<br /><br />Pat
 

BillP

Captain
Joined
Aug 10, 2002
Messages
3,290
Re: Choosing Fiberglass Supplies (long)

Here's my 02.<br /><br />If you are on a tight budget it is polyester resin, standard fiberglass cloths (no biaxials)and A/C exterior plywood.<br /><br />The stringers can be glassed with 1.5 oz (or 3)mat and 18 oz (or 24) woven roven in altenating layers(typical construction 25 yrs ago). The floor can be tabbed in around the edges with 1.5 or 3 oz mat.<br /><br />Capture the stringers all the way over. Use laminating polyester resin and coat the raw wood first. Let it get tacky and then apply the fiberglass. This will hold the cloth down when going over the tops of stringers. Thickened resin works for this problem too. Some people use a thin "dusting" aerosol spray of 3M contact glue to hold cloth also.<br /><br />Use 3/4 oz surfacing mat to glass the top and bottom of the floor. It is plenty strong for protection. Or use the 10oz cloth you mentioned but 10oz cloth is harder to do. Follow up either method with a fill coat for sanding...use finishing resin for the fill coat so it drys tack free and is sandable.<br /><br />There is nothing wrong with polyester but be sure to use styrene to clean all surfaces before glassing. Acetone "works" but isn't in the same league for prepping because styrene chemically bonds with polyester, acetone doesn't.<br /><br />If you use epoxy be sure to order mat made for epoxy. Mat made to use with polyester won't saturate with epoxy. These are two different products.
 

E. E.

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Messages
84
Re: Choosing Fiberglass Supplies (long)

Can Polyester be glassed over by any way other than sanding the surface to be glassed over? Is this what styrene does?
 

BillP

Captain
Joined
Aug 10, 2002
Messages
3,290
Re: Choosing Fiberglass Supplies (long)

EE,<br />Laminating resin stays tacky for weeks and doesn't need sanding. It eventually gets dry and then you have to sand for resin to stick well.<br /><br />Finishing resin drys tack free...and needs sanding between coats if it gets dry before you add laminations.<br /><br />In theory you can wipe down a cured polyester resin surface with styrene and glass to it ok, but I don't know any professionals who do it that way. Styrene can be used to skip sanding but it is really meant to be used after normal prep and as a thinner for polyester resin. When doing old boat hulls it is almost impossible to sand down between the fabric weave. Styrene gets to those places and chemically bonds old and new.
 

timbo1963

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
May 12, 2004
Messages
83
Re: Choosing Fiberglass Supplies (long)

Where can styrene be found?
 

Realgun

Commander
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
2,484
Re: Choosing Fiberglass Supplies (long)

I will tell you guys 1 thing poly does not stick to plywood very well. Bayliners hulls are built very stong to bad the way they put stuff in sucks.<br />What I am doing to remove the floor is grind away 1/4"-3/8" think polyester and glass mix chopper glass? To bad they missed the middle of the floor. :( Then I just lift out the plywood. the Edge wood is actually not to bad it was over the bilge area that sucked. In removeing the infloor fule tank all they did was lay the tank on 4 rubber stips about 1/2" wide and then pour poly ester on each side to hold it down.<br /><br />So I an going to be using regualr epoxy and I am coating the bottom and edges with 2 coats just to be sure i never have to do this again.<br /><br />Hope this helps.
 
Top