Could be lots of 2 strokes for sale here!

denny4

Cadet
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
19
Apparently all of our provincial parks are going strickly 4 stroke in 2009 which will mean a lot of boaters will have to repower their boats or go elsewhere and of course its being pushed by some people who sit at a desk and don't even own a boat! If this becomes reality,the 2strokes will be worthless up here and the 4 strokes will double in price...Manitoba,Canada. Keep an eye on our classifieds in near future.
 

dreamchaser

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
228
Re: Could be lots of 2 strokes for sale here!

thks denny ....... how soon ? anything in the 140hp range that u know of ?;) keep me posted .will watch for the adds ......
 

denny4

Cadet
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
19
Re: Could be lots of 2 strokes for sale here!

It kinda sucks tho, I just got my '81 merc 115 rebuilt and then found out about this. One politician tried to do this in Winnipeg but it didn't go over too well...He has riverbank property and DOES'NT own a boat,.....he hates the noise. ....So me and many say " MOVE !!!".
 

denny4

Cadet
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
19
Re: Could be lots of 2 strokes for sale here!

dreamchaser said:
thks denny ....... how soon ? anything in the 140hp range that u know of ?;) keep me posted .will watch for the adds ......

The law supposed to be in place for 2009 and if so I would think many marine dealers up here will start seeing trade-ins or many private sales in the buy & sell , auto-trader,etc,etc.
 

roscoe

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
21,759
Re: Could be lots of 2 strokes for sale here!

Just Manitoba, or all of Canada?

Seems like it will force Canadians to purchase foreign made products.

Wouldn't it be a whole lots easier, and cheaper, to mandate the use of biodegradable synthetic low toxicity oil?
 

bruceb58

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Messages
30,591
Re: Could be lots of 2 strokes for sale here!

This had been the law in Lake Tahoe, Ca and surrounding lakes for many years now.

Hate to say this...but I think its a good idea...and I do have one of the offending outboards.
 

Silvertip

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
Messages
28,771
Re: Could be lots of 2 strokes for sale here!

Better read the California law again and double check the Canadian law. California does not specifically target two-strokes and I'll bet the Candian situation is no different. They target "carbureted" two-strokes and there are fewer of those being sold each year. If the law specifically states "four-strokes only" that's one thing. If it says "carbureted two-strokes" that does not mean two strokes are outlawed. Most newer two strokes have very sophisticated fuel injection systems that make them as clean or cleaner and just as economical as most four-strokes. I'll bet Canadians can use the very fine Evinrude E-tech. Bombardier would not have invested the time and money in the E-tech development program if it had even a hint that this was going to happen. I can't believe the Provinicial Governments would cut off their nose to spite their face by preventing a Canadian firm from selling a very fine product in their own country.
 

bruceb58

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Messages
30,591
Re: Could be lots of 2 strokes for sale here!

Silvertip...you are correct. Certain newer two strokes are allowed in CA. The ones that are banned in CA are carbed and electronic-injection. Direct injection engines are allowed.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: Could be lots of 2 strokes for sale here!

Anytime they mandate any technology "they" are f'ed up. They need to mandate an emission standard. Tell us what you want, not how to do it . . . Very common issue over the years, and very commonly revoked and/or reworded.
 

Scaaty

Vice Admiral
Joined
May 31, 2004
Messages
5,180
Re: Could be lots of 2 strokes for sale here!

Save the earth...shoot a politician..... 8)
 

denny4

Cadet
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
19
Re: Could be lots of 2 strokes for sale here!

Sivertip.... I agree with you when it comes to the E-TECH outboards. I looked into those and they are better than most 4 strokes,unfortunately some politicians don't care to hear about the new specs on the new 2-strokes because all they hear is the term '2-stroke' and are hell bent on banning them. So yes they are planning to ban the 2-strokes across the board in those areas,but the dealers are on the war waggon to fight this. So we still got some time to see what happens.
 

denny4

Cadet
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
19
Re: Could be lots of 2 strokes for sale here!

Oh ya, this is just in MANITOBA, I'm not sure about the other provinces. I have heard of some lakes in ONTARIO that have local bans on all 2-strokes but that is as far as I know.
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: Could be lots of 2 strokes for sale here!

I agree with QC on this.

Technology is irrelevant. It is results that matter, and legislation should address the result desired, not how to get there.
 

bruceb58

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Messages
30,591
Re: Could be lots of 2 strokes for sale here!

I think the main problem is that certain technologies would have a tough time meeting emission standards without annual testing. Since the government does not want to annualy test outboards, they came up with rules regarding fuel systems allowed.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: Could be lots of 2 strokes for sale here!

You are correct bruceb, it is definitely part of the issue.

I don't know much about marine test standards and limits, but with heavy-duty truck and bus engines we must run an initial emission test and then a 2000 hour, accelerated durability test with the first model of any significantly different engine technology. The 2000 hour test is pretty severe, it goes something like idle, then full RPM no load, then full RPM and full power, and then peak torque RPM, and then repeats; over and over for 2000 hours. Only break is for scheduled maintenance, oil changes, valve adjustment etc. This is supposed to simulate 190,000 miles, and the engineers sweat out the possibility of any failures that may void the test.

After the accelerated durability test is complete, the engine is retested with the same test cycle as the initial test. The difference (deterioration) between the 1st and 2nd emissions tests is tallied and called a deterioration factor (DF), this difference is then applied to any new model that is certified with the same basic technology i.e. 2 stroke carb, 2 stroke DI, 4 stroke carb, 4 stroke EFI would probably all require a separate DF. If I remember correctly, you end up with an individual DF for NOx, CO, Hydrocarbons and Particulates (PM) and this amount must be added to any future test results for each of those constituents.

A company may be able to go 10 years or more with the same DF(s) if it can be argued that the basic technology has not changed much. This testing is extremely expensive and must be performed by a certified independent facility, so there is a benefit to making a really good argument AND not making wholesale changes to technology. I am guessing there is something similar in the latest marine regs too . . .
 

Boatist

Rear Admiral
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Messages
4,552
Re: Could be lots of 2 strokes for sale here!

Lake Tahoe is now allowing some two strokes. They must be newer than 1999 and meet 2006 emissions standards. 4 strokes still allowed see links below.

http://www.boattahoe.com/trparegs.htm

However many lakes used for Drinking water still Only allow 4 strokes motor. See second link.

http://www.norcalfishing.com/sanpablo.html

Most of this came from the use of MTBE fuel additive which is now band but also many with lake side homes did not like the NOISE of 2 stroke JETSKI's.
 

Paul Moir

Admiral
Joined
Nov 5, 2002
Messages
6,847
Re: Could be lots of 2 strokes for sale here!

Rather than argue it here, why not write the Minister of Conservation Stan Struthers? Here's a few points you might want to bring up with the Minister:

That the industry is phasing out polluting outboards on it's own.
That mandating a particular, modern technology without a grandfather clause restricts the lakes to rich boat owners, as it effectively kicks off any one who's only affordable boat is a used one.
That there may be alternatives to simply banning all engines outright, such as mandating the use of biodegradable 2-stroke oil.
That the environmental impact of manufacturing new outboards to replace old ones is high.
That if they're planning on banning all 2-strokes, they might first want to consider that Bombardier Recreational Products' E-TEC has won an award for cleanliness above all other 4-strokes from the American EPA.

A well written letter will be read. Don't just rant. You are writing to a reasonable human being just like you or me. Also, ask about when and where the public consultation hearings are going to be held and attend those. It may be a hassle but it is your civic duty. The Canadian AOMCI club may be of some assistance as well.

I expect you'll find that the problem is a lack of education on the part of those who are writing the legislation. They see some sexy Californian law and get all starry-eyed. Either that or you'll find there's a lobbyist. If it's an industry one, it won't be difficult to pull support from him as politicians know that people elect them, not Honda. If it's an environmental lobby, contact them and find out what data they have to support 2-stroke oil contamination of lakes about Manitoba.

I myself cannot find the proposed regulation or legislation that would cause this. Do you have any additional information?
 

Silvertip

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
Messages
28,771
Re: Could be lots of 2 strokes for sale here!

I might add that when attending meetings or writing letters, back up what you say with facts and figures. Do the research, be organized, don't ramble, and by all means get data from regulatory and testing agencies as well as Bombardier. They should be happy to help you -- after all it's in their best interest. Without data, you are wasting your time.
 
Top