Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

[garycinn]

I'm just pontificating here. Since GM makes the blocks for Volvo and Merc, it feels like kind of a monopoly on the I/O scene. Outboards have lots of choices. It seems like us I/O guys have one choice -- GM.<br /><br />Do you think someone like Honda would ever make an I/O package? They make automotive engines and outboards, why not the whole package?<br /><br />Or someone like Yamaha or Suzuki could team up with someone else (Ford, Dodge, Toyota) to buy engines from someone and develop a package.<br /><br />A 350 Mag MPI Merc with Bravo I lists for $15,000 for the package. Yes, I know they do a lot to marinize the engine, etc., but that seems like a lot of cash.<br /><br />Do you wish that someone else would enter the I/O market? How long do you think it will be?

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

I dunno garycinn. Seems like everyone else has gone to aluminum heads and that does not bode well for raw water marine applications.

 

[ZmOz]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

Well, first of all Ford already makes some marine engines, although they aren't popular. Honda and all the other Japanese companies make little tiny engines. Boats need big engines, that's all there is to it.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

I doubt it<br /> Ford withdrew from the marine market several years ago. GM would like to. the marine market is less than 10%of GM engine sales and makes about 80% of the warrenty claims. I will be so happy when the 3.0 disapears it aint funny. star power makes a decent I/O using a 4cyl mitsubishi and shamrock used the little mitsubshi but most jap motors are small and its doubtful if they can take the constant strain of running at the rated horsepower for hours and hours. its all a matter of bean counting. the marine market is very expensive that is why mercrusier is now using yanmars and cummins. comes down to economics and marketing<br /> good luck and keep posting

 

[Wart T]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

Hey Rodbolt, where do you get that information? The 80% one I mean?

 

[WSUDERMAN]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

Toyota did some ski boats back in 97'. Used the 4.7l v8 motor I believe. I think they exited the market in 2002. Poor sales was the reason...<br /><br />True, the aluminum blocks and heads could be a problem but it will just force the use of closed cooling systems on the engines. <br /><br />wes

 

[ZmOz]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

Originally posted by rodbolt:<br /> I doubt it<br />the marine market is less than 10%of GM engine sales and makes about 80% of the warrenty claims.

BS<br /><br />GM doesn't provide any warranty for marine engines...Mercury does.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

not always<br /> if the problem is a GM one then mercury charges it back to GM. we had a big row with circulaing pumps not long ago. seems GM wont buy them cause they said there is no problems merc ate a bunch of them snd still is. the shaft seal material was changed and does not like raw water. I was chatting with a merc and GM rep at the boat show a few years back when ford announced it was withdrawing from the market. ford cited lack of sales VS cost of warrenty.<br /> if you think merc will buy a motor GM made that was a GM defect I got some land to sell ya. next low tide come look at it.<br /> good luck and keep posting.

 

[DJ]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

Engine sales to the marine market is a huge loser for an automotive OEM, as rodbolt states.<br /><br />It's too much work to rewoerk power curves, design and test marinization components, etc.<br /><br />It all boils down to economics.

 

[mikecjn]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

I was just watching 'Ship Shape TV' the other night and they said that GM now makes 100% of all I/O motors. They also said something about Ford and Chrysler not being able to beat the power coming from the GM line. I was surprised to hear that GM was 100%

 

[DJ]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

The lack of power thing is a load of crap. It's more an issue of GM being the only one left making all (block/heads) cast iron pushrod engines. They're cheap to marinize.<br /><br />Marine engines are a "loser". GM won't be in the market much longer as they move away from the older technology engines..

 

[cuzner]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

I think its more of an issue of what the stern-drive manufacture do with the engines, than who forges the blocks.I've read good things about crusader, seems they beef up the parts that take the most abuse, and last up 2 times longer than merc or omc.<br /><br /> Jim

 

[cobra 3.0]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

I'm a little befuddled. The technology has been relatively the same for many, many years. Same old blocks, same old production lines. All this equipment was amortized years ago. I have a hard time believing this is a money losing proposition especially with their 100% market share. They can pretty well dictate the price to compensate for any warranty claims. This should be a cash cow, not a losing business.

 

[imported_Mike_M2]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

Toyota did make a complete engine/outdrive package in the late 90's, and it was pretty darn bulletproof. The problem was they wre very expensive and didn't sell. Word is they will be attempting to re-enter the market again using the same outdrive and the Iforce V8 they use in Tundra pickups. My guess is they will still be expensive, and anybody that has ever had thier Toyota car serviced already knows repairs are so crazy overpriced they won't be able to make it. <br />Both Chrysler and Ford have made V8 marine blocks for years, but both are not in the marine business anymore. My guess is the cost of warranty and re-work for the marine environment made it non cost effective to produce. <br />There is a new technology just around the corner(well, not so new, but new to the marine environment). It's called Axial-Vector, and is a totally different concept in gas burning engines. It's like nothing you've ever seen, having 6 double ended pistons that when moved by compression rotate a warped disc which is attached to a driveshaft. There are no rods or crankshaft and there is no return stroke of the piston, as the piston return is actually the other end firing. They have already been tested in small planes and do well. Aeromarine is planning to start production on a 300 hp. unit in a few years. They will offer hp up to 450 in a package the size of your cooler on your boat. Torque in these engines is supposed be double a standard V8, wieght at about half, and cost about the same.<br />Time will tell, but everybody i think will agree it's time for a new design like this. The V type engine has been around a long time with little change....

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

its a loser.<br /> the 3.0 and a lot of the 5.7's are Hechen En Mexico now. stillwater OK still makes the HiPo stuff as well as some of the corvette motors. I understand from some friends in the industry that some major crank grinding and machining equipment is headed south soon. the last 4 marine power 5.7 had made in mexico cast in them. I also understand that merc is looking to open some production plants in china. a lot of bombardia as well as merc parts are made or assembled in mexico. its all a matter of beans. if the bean counters dont like it it will go.<br /> good luck and keep posting

 

[f_inscreenname]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

Everyone has made a marine motor at one time or another. Out of all the marine motor I have built or rebuilt over the years I must say that Chrysler small block was the toughest. Everything in that motor is “big”. I remember the first time I saw a small block 318 I thought it was a big block. But all good thing must come to a end. Emissions, the company being sold and a redesign of the small block did the marine versions in. Like said before Chevy had most of the market so it was not profitable (the reason for all decisions) to go on.. If you find the right bell housing or bell housing adapter or have one made you can use about any motor you want. When you get in as deep as some of the boat rebuilds I have done its surprising what you can come up when you have no other options. Also any motor can be converted to marine use but with raw water cooling I would stay clear of aluminum motors. With closed cooling systems the sky is the limit. Somewhere on the web I saw a turbine hooked up to a drive. I lost the address when my PC crashed but I am sure if you look hard enough you will find it and a lot of other options you never thought would work.

 

[achris]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

The axial-vector engine you taked about Mike, was invented in New Zealand by a guy named Lance Carlyle. I'm glad to hear he's got it into production. He showed me a video of the manufacture of the first proto-type about 5 years ago. Quite a different approach from the current reciprocating engines. He got the idea from, of all things, a hydraulic motor.<br /><br />Chris...........

 

[imported_Mike_M2]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

Funny i brought this up, last night i read an upated article in the Axial Vector. The idea is now completely owned by Aeromarine now, but apparently they keep changing corporate heads. First, Pat Wilkes and Dennis Palmer were the top dogs before Aeromarine purchased the rights to the idea. Ritchie Powers ran Aeromarine, but just resigned and Ben Langford now runs the show. Hopefully they will stop bouncing the ball around and try to make a shot here soon, as the estimated mid 2005 date set for production is not gonna happen...

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

Tough to compete with GM:<br /><br />1) The engines are produced in tremendous quantities and have been for decades - The SBC 350 & 305 for example has been around since 1967 and is the "most popular engine the world has ever know. It has been installed in just about every transportation device imaginable." SBC blocks are so plentiful that when you buy a rebuilt, they don't even want your old engine in most cases.<br /><br />2) There are tons of spare parts available and well distributed throughout the world<br /><br />3) Mechanics the world over know them well and have been repairing them for decades.<br /><br />4) The are lots of aftermarket parts manufacturers<br /><br />5) They have a track record decades long.<br /><br />It's just hard to see how a new entrant can compete - If Ford and Chrysler can't make money then it's unlikely anyone will. If anyone begins to make a dent in the market GM can use their tremendous economic power and cut prices to drive the other guy out of business in short order. It would take really deep pockets and a long term commitment to enter what amounts to a pretty small market. It may happen but it is a long shot. I just don't see anyone willing to put up that kind of capital - maybe Brunswick since they own so many boat makers now and have all the Mercury OB experience.... but then again, they probably can't produce an engine cheaper than they can buy them from GM

 

[DJ]

Re: Do you think anyone other than GM will make an I/O engine

The issue is, and always has been, cost, cost, cost. Chrrysler and Ford were in that business when it made sense for them to be in it. Partly because their competition (GM) was. The I/O was relatively new at that time.<br /><br />The engines in production today, are older designs and production costs are minimal, in comparison. As those designs fade away, so will the powerplants we now have available in the industry. A 5.7 L V-8. complete with drive assembly can be purchased for half the price of a 250 HP four stroke outboard. Why? They're cheap to build and the numbers (quantity) are there.<br /><br />Will they be replaced? Probably. However, one can surely count on a huge increase in price.<br /><br />The axial concept is nothing new. It has been, as achris said, in use as a "driven" motor/compressor for years. Does anyone remember the "wobble plate" GM A/C compressors (the long ones) of the 60's and 70's? Guess what, they were axial plate! <br /><br />I hope the concept comes to fruition. Or, we start to see the newer generation of internal combustion engines marinized. I can assure you, MerCruiser and Volvo are looking at everything. They are NOT going to hand that market over to an upstart or someone like Toyota.