Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

[Tahorover]

:facepalm::facepalm:

 

[86 century]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

That makes you realy want to buy fuel from them dont it.

I try to post this whenever this comes up.

I have found that some coops have ethonal free fuel for a fair price.
Cant hurt to check for you older outboard guys.

 

[superbenk]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

That makes you realy want to buy fuel from them dont it.

I try to post this whenever this comes up.

I have found that some coops have ethonal free fuel for a fair price.
Cant hurt to check for you older outboard guys.

Actually, I'd have more respect for a gas station that advertised the concerns around ethanol fuel rather than ignore it or hide it. There is a gas station on the way to my local lake that states the fuel is 10% ethanol & that boaters should inquire inside about using mixed gas in their boats & the possible issues with it. I respect that.

That being said, I don't think 10% ethanol gas is really as dire a problem as that sign makes it out to be for boats. Boats built since the early 80's were constructed with materials designed to tolerate the ethanol to a degree. There's some good advice there about maintaining filters, etc. but you should be doing that regardless of what gas you're running.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

this guy may be posting this to get more people to try to stop the boondoggle that is the government requirement of ethanol which only serves to line the pockets of the ethanol producers.

Or he may be tired of people coming back complaining that his "bad gas" messed up their motors. That could mean one of two things: he has water in his gas, or he is tired of people coming back complaining that his "bad gas" messed up their motors. At a marina, he may be the main, perhaps only, source of fuel.

 

[Philster]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

Something like that is on every fuel pump around here that distributes ethanol-- just smaller. Specifically warns boaters.

.

 

[ricohman]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

Ethanol is great.
Not only does it offer less power and economy, but it actually degrades engine parts and absorbs water like a sponge.
Its the gift that keeps on giving!

 

[H20Rat]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

Wonder why the warning about mixing ethanol and non-ethanol... That is perfectly fine, as e10 is already mixed with gas! I'm guessing there is more to the story, as cookin' mentioned above. A stern warning about mixing fuel will give you a captive audience if the other marina sells regular gas.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

someone said this in another post:

if you have been running non-ethanol fuel, whatever water that inevitably gets in the tank is on the bottom. If your pick-up tube is on a float or not all the way at the bottom, you don't pick it up. But if you pour in E10, since it atttracts water, it will suspend that bottom water throughout the fuel in the tank, to get picked up and sent to the engine.

Makes sense to me but I can't vouch for it.

Can't be a problem adding pure gas to E10.

Wonder why the warning about mixing ethanol and non-ethanol... That is perfectly fine, as e10 is already mixed with gas! I'm guessing there is more to the story, as cookin' mentioned above. A stern warning about mixing fuel will give you a captive audience if the other marina sells regular gas.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

Ethanol is great.
Not only does it offer less power and economy, but it actually degrades engine parts and absorbs water like a sponge.
Its the gift that keeps on giving!

The best part is that it takes more than a gallon of gasoline to make a gallon of ethanol. So we are just going backwards if we are trying to reduce fuel consumption nationally.

 

[H20Rat]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

someone said this in another post:

if you have been running non-ethanol fuel, whatever water that inevitably gets in the tank is on the bottom. If your pick-up tube is on a float or not all the way at the bottom, you don't pick it up. But if you pour in E10, since it atttracts water, it will suspend that bottom water throughout the fuel in the tank, to get picked up and sent to the engine.

makes sense, but I've never seen a fuel tank that had a floating pickup... Every boat I've owned at least has had a static tube that rested at the bottom. Seems like a really bad idea with no real positive to having a floating pickup.

So, if you do happen to have one of those rare floating pickups, makes sense. For the other 99% of boaters, that isn't valid.

 

[Ernest T]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

My marina says the fuel is Non-ethanol, but is there any simple way to test that? They are charging a premium for it. I'd just like to know for sure it is non-ethanol before I pay the extra $$$.

 

[Friscoboater]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

I guess I am missing something. I have never had any issues from ethanol at all, nor have I ever heard of anyone having issues. Does this just affect older boats?

 

[QC]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

Guys,

these threads either go political or they are rife with wives tails or they are technically inaccurate. Usually all three. Let's keep it to facts and info, OK? Thanks.

E10 has a very small impact on energy density, and there are benefits too like Octane. I am not a fan, but I can be fair. What engine parts are "degraded"? Annnnd I would think water absorption is good in small doses. Especially if there is any real risk of water collecting at the bottom of your tank (I think that risk has been proven to be quite low.) But if it did collect, wouldn't the problem continue to get worse if the water was not somehow dispersed (burnt?)

I guess my point is that I am always suspect of information that only points out the bad stuff. There are two sides to most coins.

 

[H20Rat]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

E10 has a very small impact on energy density, and there are benefits too like Octane. I am not a fan, but I can be fair. What engine parts are "degraded"?

In a properly tuned engine, ethanol can give you a very nice performance boost! Its actually quite popular in the high performance car world, nicknamed rocket fuel!

To take advantage of e85, you need either a high compression engine, or better yet, forced induction. E85 burns cool and has an insane octane rating. You can push the boost and timing far beyond anything else you can get out of the pump. In my case, last time my little 4 cylinder car was on the dyno, it put out 245 horsepower/255 torque at the wheels on 91 octane. E85 pushed that up to 260 and 290 ft/lb of torque. (that is at the wheels, so roughly 30% being lost already) Mileage is essentially identical.

I've run various mixes of e85/gasoline for 5 years now in a car, no adverse affects on the engine yet. (and this is an engine that is NOT certified from the manufacturer for e85)

 

[QC]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

Mileage is essentially identical.

I agree with everything but that. The energy density is quite a bit lower.

Gasoline is 116,090 BTU/Gal and Ethanol 76,330 BTU/Gal (Low Heat Value) http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/fueltable.pdf

So if 85% of your gal is Ethanol then 76,330 x .85 = 64,881

And 15% of your gal is Gasoline then 116,090 x .15 = 17,414

Then your gallon of E85 only contains 64,881 + 17, 414 or 82,295 BTU/Gal or only 71% of the energy content of gasoline.

Sooooo . . . it can't get the same Mileage if it's in the same engine.

 

[Friscoboater]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

I have noticed that. My wires van use to get around 18 MPG before ethanol, and these days it gets around 15 mpg. Yes it is old.

 

[Oshkosh1]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

My(now my daughters college buggy) 03 Caravan suffered only a 10% (21-22mpg E-10/19-20mpg E-85)mileage decrease if driving at highway speed for the majority of the tank.

If the driving was either city, or a mix...the decrease was more on the order of 30%, therefore the cost saving at the pump was virtually negated. My guess is that the decrease in "energy" was more noticeable when more aggresive acceleration was called for during the stop and go driving, rather than the even power demand of long distance highway jaunts.

Luckily for me, there is a non-ethanol station nearby whose prices are equal to that of the e-10 stations. For my cars/truck I notice an increase of 1-2mpg running no-E as opposed to the E-10. I use only the no-E in my snowmobiles and boats if at all possible.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

The warning not to mix with non-ethanol gas is probably because straight gas USED to contain MTBE--MBTE---Oh, Hell, M something. This compound , when mixed with ethanol in the presence of moisture did form a gel that clogged carbs, filters, lines etc. It is NOT in straight fuel today because it was phased out by law a couple of years ago.

I won't address the argument that it takes more than one gallon of gasoline to compound one gallon of ethanol. Our government does do some counter-intuitive things but since the mandate to use ethanol to reduce dependence on foreign oil would be counterproductive if it took more gasoline to make ethanol, I doubt our govt. would do that.

 

[dave11]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

Not just NO, but HExx NO!!!!!!
I quit putting ethanol fuel in both of my boats. The fuel dock, Dons Dock, advertises no ethanol. I've been buying there for years because of that.

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

I agree with everything but that. The energy density is quite a bit lower.

Gasoline is 116,090 BTU/Gal and Ethanol 76,330 BTU/Gal (Low Heat Value) http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/fueltable.pdf

So if 85% of your gal is Ethanol then 76,330 x .85 = 64,881
And 15% of your gal is Gasoline then 116,090 x .15 = 17,414
Then your gasoline of E85 only contains 64,881 + 17, 414 or 82,295 BTU/Gal or only 71% of the energy content of gasoline.
Sooooo . . . it can't get the same Mileage if it's in the same engine.

I agree with your post except....

The, "Mileage was essentially identical" statement is vague and doesn't specify what "Essentially" means. 1%? 10%??
Two factors may help level the playing field.

1. Advancing the timing and increasing the intake manifold pressure technically means that it is NOT in the Same Engine.
By advancing the timing and increasing the intake manifold pressure, the effeciency of the conversion from heat to horsepower will be increase by a small but unknown, meaningfull amount.

2. The mixture of alcohol with gasoline does not produce a linear increase in volume.
In other words, mixing 85 ounces of alcohol with 15 ounces of gasoline does NOT yield 100 ounces of E-85.
The final mixture will yield a solution of higher specific gravity and of less volume than the two liquids that you started with.
An analogy would be like adding a cup of sand to a pail of gravel.
The pail would be no more full, but will be heavier, as the sand filled in the spaces between the gravel.
So 100 ounces of E-85 actually contains more than 85 ounces of alcohol and 15 ounces of Gasoline.

I am not saying that this will cancel out the loss of heat of combustion of the mixture, but it will reduce the apparent loss to some extent.