E15 Study by Dept of Energy & Mercury Marine

[Faztbullet]

From The Boating Industry Magazine
October 25, 2011
Filed under News

WASHINGTON ? The results from two studies conducted by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory on the effects of E15 on marine engines were released on Friday, showing that the gasoline and ethanol blend can cause issues including drivability, materials compatibility, increased emissions, and long-term durability in outboard, stern drive and inboard engines, according to the release.

The High Ethanol Fuel Endurance study tested the effects of E15 and E0 on four-stroke and two-stroke Mercury outboard engines that included the 9.9HP four-stroke, the Verado 300HP Supercharged four-stroke and the 200 EFI two-stroke.

In addition to increase fuel consumption in two of the engines, the study showed that E15 caused damage to two out of three outboards and complete failure in the Verado 300HP engine, as well as ?degraded emissions performance outside of engine certification limits,? according to the release.

The results of the study reinforced the industry?s concerns about proper warning labeling at fueling stations. In September, the NMMA, along with the Engine Products Group, filed a suit challenging the rules regarding gas pump misuse controls for gas pumps containing up to 15 percent Ethanol.

According to the NMMA, the new rules would not do enough to prevent possible damage to marine engines from possible misfueling with E15 fuel, and petitioned to require E10 fuel to also be sold at gas stations.

?Current proposals by the ethanol industry to increase the amount of ethanol in gasoline should seriously concern all boaters and owners of other small engine equipment,? said Thom Dammrich, NMMA president. ?Although NMMA strongly supports renewable fuels as a means to reduce America?s dependence on foreign sources of oil and improve the environment, there is growing evidence that ethanol is not the answer to America?s energy challenge.?

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy12osti/52909.pdf
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy12osti/52577.pdf

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: E15 Study by Dept of Energy & Mercury Marine

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[royal0014]

Re: E15 Study by Dept of Energy & Mercury Marine

I hope this puts E15 "to bed" once and for all!!

Ain't gonna happen.....


<<)))(((>>

 

[Silvertip]

Re: E15 Study by Dept of Energy & Mercury Marine

It is amazing that auto makers have for years, built engines that can run on E-85 without an issue yet the marine engine industry continues to drag it's feet and cannot handle E-15. Yes -- the charts show very different engine loading issues between marine and automotive but there are trucks running ethanol fuel pulling very stout loads that don't have an issue. Unless I missed it (and I didn't read the entire report line for line) -- lean operation was the major issue in these tests. If you want to destroy any engine all you need to do is run it lean regardless what fuel you burn. If the purpose of the test was to prove E-15 will destroy an engine that has not been modified for the fuel they obviously proved their point. It also shows they have not done their homework on lubrication when in fact they should have been doing that since the mid 80's. My feeling is that this was not a very objective study.

 

[etracer68]

Re: E15 Study by Dept of Energy & Mercury Marine

I have been in drag racing for over 20 years, and when we converted from race gas to methanol, we had to have the carbs redone to handle alot more fuel. We had motors that made upwords of 750HP sb chevys. We would measure exhaust temps at all ports, and then re-jet the carb (all 4 differant) to try and get about 1150 deg on all four corners. Gas rans about 200 degs hotter then methanol, and we used almost twice as much fuel per pass with methanol. I take it they ran thoses motors lean, and burned them up. Theres alot more to just adding more ethanol to gas, and think its not going to hurt motors that are setup to run just gas. I agree with Silvertip.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: E15 Study by Dept of Energy & Mercury Marine

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[lncoop]

Re: E15 Study by Dept of Energy & Mercury Marine

I have been in drag racing for over 20 years, and when we converted from race gas to methanol, we had to have the carbs redone to handle alot more fuel. We had motors that made upwords of 750HP sb chevys. We would measure exhaust temps at all ports, and then re-jet the carb (all 4 differant) to try and get about 1150 deg on all four corners. Gas rans about 200 degs hotter then methanol, and we used almost twice as much fuel per pass with methanol. I take it they ran thoses motors lean, and burned them up. Theres alot more to just adding more ethanol to gas, and think its not going to hurt motors that are setup to run just gas. I agree with Silvertip.

Fascinating.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: E15 Study by Dept of Energy & Mercury Marine

There are and will always be devices (engines in this case) that will not tolerate a newly mandated fuel, or be impacted in other ways by government mandates. Unless owners of the current and older products keep informed and fail to do what is necessary to work within those parameters, there will be failures. Adapt or suffer. California mandated many years ago that older cars were required to have the distributor advance mechanisms altered to reduce emissions. That mandate seriously restricted ignition advance which obviously impacted performance of the car, fuel consumption went into the toilet and a sticker was issued that warned about operation of the vehicle at speeds over 60 MPH (if my memory serves me correctly). People adapted and everyone lived with the problem and eventually moved on. So it is with ethanol. As for the government support of the ethanol industry that is just one more way industry in the long list. Didn't the government (actually us) just get the short end of the stick in Obama's support for Solyndra? Yes -- this is an issue. But I will re-jet, ensure rubber parts are ethanol tolerant or replace then with stainless hard lines and continue boating.

 

[royal0014]

Re: E15 Study by Dept of Energy & Mercury Marine

I don't want to turn this into a political argument about ethanol but (the production of) ethanol needs to stand completely on its own.

I.E. when the market it ready for ethanol it'll happen. If the govt continues to subsidize the industry to force us in that direction it probably won't. My apologies go out to farmers that are getting paid tax dollars to produce corn for ethanol. But it needs to stop and allow the market to do it......And if it cannot, then they need to sell the corn for food production, outhouses etc!! Govt subsidies for anything (electric cars, etc) are inherently bad because they line the pockets of lobbyists and circumvent the free market. (in general, it also hasn't worked yet)


All Mercury's test did was indicate that most current and previous design outboard engines will not do well on E15 and above without serious modification and misfueling can and probably will damage many or most engines.

That will probably result in class action suits against anyone who sells E15 and above that either mis-mark pumps or accidentally pump e15 into either vehicles engines etc, or storage tanks not intended for it.......Which course will just increase the cost of getting it to the pump.....

We lose either way.......

This is about as close to truth as it gets.......


<<)))(((>>

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: E15 Study by Dept of Energy & Mercury Marine

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[Fuel Chemist]

Re: E15 Study by Dept of Energy & Mercury Marine

There are and will always be devices (engines in this case) that will not tolerate a newly mandated fuel, or be impacted in other ways by government mandates. Unless owners of the current and older products keep informed and fail to do what is necessary to work within those parameters, there will be failures. Adapt or suffer. California mandated many years ago that older cars were required to have the distributor advance mechanisms altered to reduce emissions. That mandate seriously restricted ignition advance which obviously impacted performance of the car, fuel consumption went into the toilet and a sticker was issued that warned about operation of the vehicle at speeds over 60 MPH (if my memory serves me correctly). People adapted and everyone lived with the problem and eventually moved on. So it is with ethanol. As for the government support of the ethanol industry that is just one more way industry in the long list. Didn't the government (actually us) just get the short end of the stick in Obama's support for Solyndra? Yes -- this is an issue. But I will re-jet, ensure rubber parts are ethanol tolerant or replace then with stainless hard lines and continue boating.

There is a big difference between automobiles (closed fuel systems) and boats (open fuel systems) which pull water-ladened air in during normal operations. Since ,"ETOH readily absorbs water (H2O); as little as .5% H2O will cause phase separation. When the water/ethanol phase sinks, a lower-octane gasoline layer remains on top. Low octane gas can cause performance issues in 4-stroke engines, or damage 2-strokes engines." http://my.boatus.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=56486&PN=1 , BoatUS Club House Messageboards : Ethanol Issues, Chuck Fort, 12 Apr 06

Ethanol by itself is a very corrosive. The older polyester resin/fiberglass tanks were very vulnerable to E10, but newer ones made with vinylester and epoxy can tolerate it. Studies need to be done to determine if the additional 50% ethanol will cause problems.

Metal tanks are also impacted . Joints on steel tanks are typically soldered and are very vulnerable to the corrosive effects of E10, let alone E15. Aluminum tanks are also vulnerable to corrosion of the base metal.

Further E85 does not have separation issues that are as bad as E10. This is because E85 has a much larger capacity to absorb water before the water separates out.

 

[fuelbuster]

Re: E15 Study by Dept of Energy & Mercury Marine

I don't think there's any question that Mercury, BRP or any other manufacturer can design and build engines to run on either E-15 or even E85.

That isn't the problem. The problem is that when you exceed approx 10% ethanol in gasoline in CURRENT (outboard) engines the problems multiply.

I don't want to turn this into a political argument about ethanol but (the production of) ethanol needs to stand completely on its own.

I.E. when the market it ready for ethanol it'll happen. If the govt continues to subsidize the industry to force us in that direction it probably won't. My apologies go out to farmers that are getting paid tax dollars to produce corn for ethanol. But it needs to stop and allow the market to do it......And if it cannot, then they need to sell the corn for food production, outhouses etc!! Govt subsidies for anything (electric cars, etc) are inherently bad because they line the pockets of lobbyists and circumvent the free market. (in general, it also hasn't worked yet)


All Mercury's test did was indicate that most current and previous design outboard engines will not do well on E15 and above without serious modification and misfueling can and probably will damage many or most engines.

That will probably result in class action suits against anyone who sells E15 and above that either mis-mark pumps or accidentally pump e15 into either vehicles engines etc, or storage tanks not intended for it.......Which course will just increase the cost of getting it to the pump.....

We lose either way.......

Would not surprise me if BRP was foolish enough to design an engine for >E10 - Being the 1st and only marine manufacturer to receive an award from the EPA (2005) they have always been very pro-ethanol.
Plus, recently the pro ethanol groups succeeded in promoting E85 fuel for motorcycles See Renewable Fuels Association?s (RFA) ?Fueled with Pride? sponsorship of the 71st Annual Sturgis Motorcycle Rally August 2011 - http://www.ethanolrfa.org/news/entry/rfa-fuels-71st-sturgis-motorcycle-rally-with-ethanol-pride/

Although it would be hard to control alcohol's ability to attract water in a marine engine, the issues with E85 are not the same as E10 -EG. Oil and water don't mix, and since E85 only has 15% oil, phase separation is not an issue. Note: Most marine engine experience damage from E10 solely because the fuel phase separated - It's not the water specifically that's doing the damage but rather after P/S octane drops about 3 points in upper layer and lower layer now consists of 60-95% alcohol + water- P/S fuel is also contaminated in many other ways.

This certainly isn't the first study to demonstrate how E10 and above will damage a marine engine -
- EG. See 2003 "Marine Outboard Driveability Assessment to Determine Impacts of a 10% and 20% Ethanol Gasoline Fuel Blend" completed by Orbital Engine Company (also tested Mercury engines with similar results).
http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/publications/marine/pubs/marine.pdf

The only hope I have from the recent Mercury marine study is that it will re-open discussion on why ethanol-free fuel should be available for marine (and other) specialty engines. The pro-ethanol groups have already started to distort the impact of this study (see articles listed below).

Anybody that has been testing fuel at the pump already knows E10 often has 15%, 20% and even higher amounts of ethanol, therefore the only viable solution is to protect access and availability of ethanol-free E0 fuel in the future (for those engine types that require it). If you have not already signed Fuel-tester's "Ethanol-Free Fuel Choice Petition", now is the perfect time to do so.

And while you're defending your right to choose the most appropriate fuel type (E0) for marine engines, stop by and post some comments (share your thoughts) on the sites that are trying to hide the truth, that marine engines are not only damaged by E15, they also can and have experienced damage and unnecessary problems from E10 and most other ethanol-blends of fuel.
- Title: "Ethanol industry reorients discussion about E15 and boating". Ethanol Producer Magazine, Nov. 8th, 2011;
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/arti...cussion-about-e15-and-boating#respond#respond
- Title: "Study: E15 ethanol damages boat engines- Ethanol supporters contend that research isn't fair", Nov. 2nd, 2011
http://www.argusleader.com/article/20111103/NEWS/311030019/Study-E15-ethanol-damages-boat-engines

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: E15 Study by Dept of Energy & Mercury Marine

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[ondarvr]

Re: E15 Study by Dept of Energy & Mercury Marine

Come on HT32BSX115, what do we know about the real effects of using E 10, we've only been on it and similar products for about 20 years here in WA.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: E15 Study by Dept of Energy & Mercury Marine

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[fuelbuster]

Re: E15 Study by Dept of Energy & Mercury Marine

- - - Basic science: Oil and water don't mix. Marine engines reside in a water environment. Alcohol absorbs water - - -


Alcohol is hygroscopic - Water and alcohol are totally miscible liquids. Water and gasoline are not.

Phase-separated E10 gas consists of an octane deficient upper layer and an alcohol rich (+water) lower layer.
(Pure solvent ethanol has an octane of 110-115).

Definition of hygroscopic: Describing the ability or tendency of a material to take up moisture readily from the surrounding air or other moist materials.

E10 (90-Oil:10-Alcohol) is a recipe for disaster for any marine engine and/or prolonged storage in moist environmental conditions.
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Why in 2011 are we still debating whether or not E10 or E15 is an appropriate fuel type for marine engines?
Might as well promote E85 (15-Oil:90-Alcohol), since at least you wouldn't have the phase separation and sub-octane issues.