Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

[LadyFish]

Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

Galveston County Daily News
By Joe Kent
Correspondent

Published September 10, 2006

If you looked outside Saturday, you would understand why there were no fishing reports. Friday, prospects were great for a good weekend for anglers, then “Whammo!” The storms hit with a fury about noon Saturday, bringing fishing to a halt.

This presents an opportunity to pass on some vital information about the adverse effects of ethanol on boats with outboard engines.

Before beginning, however, I want to thank my longtime friend Marie Brocato, a weekend resident of Galveston and career salesperson in the boating industry, for furnishing most of this information.

Ethanol 10 is now the only gas available and, albeit potentially beneficial to the environment, the effects on outboard engines can be disastrous. Ethanol does not store well without a stabilizer. Even so, ethanol stored in fiberglass or plastic tanks will make the fiberglass soft and mushy, leading to tank failure and engine failure, due to the plastic or fiberglass dissolving into the gas.

Ethanol is an alcohol and absorbs water. Prior to the introduction of ethanol, water would drop to the bottom of the tank. With ethanol, water is absorbed, which, in turn, will contaminate the whole tank of gas. Boat gas tanks are more susceptible to water, and the ethanol blend will absorb water from the air as well.

Ethanol is a solvent and will deteriorate rubber hoses and fuel lines. It will also remove sludge and grime from the walls of the tank.

Now, what should the boater do?

First and foremost, contact the manufacturer of your engine or dealer. Most all of the outboard manufacturers have newsletters and other information on how you should deal with the new gasoline. Also, discuss it with your outboard mechanic.

If you do not have a water separator on your fuel line, make it a high priority to get one.

Keep a stock of water separator filters on the boat, together with the proper tools to change them. There are numerous other suggestions and your boat dealer or mechanic can fill you in regarding your specific engine.

 

[Texasmark]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

Been running thru my Merc Serv Manual where they give the date, can't find it, but for midranges I think the year was '91 (it's in the manual somewhere, saw it before) and later where they said that Mercs were designed to run on 10% alcohol in the fuel (ethanol) .

This says that the components in the fuel system have been redesigned so as to not be damaged (softened, swollen, etc) by the addition of alcohol.

I have had first had problems years ago, with water in the tank and the jell formed when I added a fuel stabilizer that apparently contained alcohol.....after the tank apparently contained some water. The same type of jell formed in my truck's windshield washer tank when I got the bright idea to dilute the washer mix (alcohol) with water in the summer when it's not freezing in an attempt to save 50 cents. Stupid economy.

Since most fuel tanks are vented, it's hard to keep the tank from breathing and in a marine environment, the humidity is usually high meaning it has water in it.

There is some kind of hydroscopic phenomenon out there that says that if a container injests humid air, it will exhale the air but keep the water. Have had this happen and it's true. Maybe the water condenses on the walls and that's how it's separated via temperature changes.....walls cooler than atmosphere, will sweat. Water comes from humid air. :/

Don't know about alcohol attacking fiberglas tanks. There are a lot of bad dudes out there (chemicals of all sorts) contained safely in fiberglas tanks; plastic who knows.

We are just now getting into the ethanol requrement here so we'll see.

Have seen numerous posts on here from folks in the midwest USA that have been using it for years with no problems according to them.......but what's the normal humidity in Florida vs Nebraska for starters.

Don't know personally. Just some thoughts. But will be finding out pretty soon.

But I have salvation. I keep SEA FOAM in my tank always. 8)

Mark

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

Here we go again. Believe half of what you hear. Mark is correct in that outboards have been able to use E10 for years. Older engines will experiece component degradation (hoses, gaskets, and even some carb metals can be affected). That said, the biggest issue is that E10 is a great fuel system cleaner so older fuel systems will have all of the gunk and crud loosened up and hopefully it is stopped at the fuel filter. Generally however, if this does occur, carb reuilds are necessary. Once that "initial" cleansing has occured, the engine will perform very nicely on E10. Like any other fuel, it should be stabilized (SeaFoam or Stabil) when stored. My boat sits (inside) from early November until ice-out and I've never had a problem with the fuel going sour. I should also mention that we in the Midwest have used E10 since 1997. Although I no longer own it, I had a 1995 Evinrude (purchased new) and it lived on regular fuel for two years, then obviously switched to E10 in 1997. In 2004 the carbs were rebuilt for preventive reasons rather than corrective reasons and they were absolutely spotless inside. Coastal areas seem to have some issues with high moisture content and there are some issues with "fiberglass" tanks. Plastic tanks are not an issue.

 

[LadyFish]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

Seems to play havic with the fuel pump or at least it did for us on a 2001 Johnson 150 Outboard.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

The fuel pump outage was an observation made by whom, and what exactly happened. I would bet a considerable amount of coin E-10 had nothing to do with whatever happened.

 

[Silver/Fish]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

Boat U.S. magazine ran a story recently about the use of E-10 in fiberglass tanks...They did not say that there was a issue with the "newer" plastic fuel tanks????

Keep extra fuel filters on board....

 

[LadyFish]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

Our mechanic claims that ethanol in the gas dries out the diaphragm prematurely. He's changed out 5 fuel pumps recently and blames it on the amount of ethanol in the gas.

I don't know if he's right or not, I'm just repeating what he told us.

 

[Texasmark]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

I think there is merit in the fact that alcohol dries out some rubbers; lots of paper out there stating that. But there are all kinds of rubbers that are formulated to resists different chemicals and things, and mfgrs have said that they have prepared for it. So........

Case in point; one example. I have a wet sleeve John Deere agricultural tractor. Wet sleeve means that the sleeve comes out of the block at overhaul. It is sealed at the top, where coolant is, with a red gasket. It is sealed on the bottom, where the crankcase oil is, with a black gasket.

Obviously the rubbers were formulated to survive their respective environments.

Now if you have a mechanic that has received 5 engines that didn't run and the only thing he did was to replace the fuel pump or diaphragm due to them becoming brittle, and made the engines run again, then obviously the mfgrs haven't finished their homework.

My 2c

Mark

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

Then why is it a problem at your location and not here? Does that mean that every fuel pump failure in the future will be blamed on E10? I agree that E10 raises havoc with certain older fuel system components. The fuel line in my very old Sears Chainsaw turned to dust. A carb on my 1986 Chrysler New Yorker suffered from a talcum powder looking compound in the float bowl that caused periodic fuel starvation. Those were old engines and were not built to handle E10. It is my contention that component failure in many cases are being blamed erroneously on E10. I wonder how many fuel pumps were replaced in the year or two prior to E10 introduction.

 

[LadyFish]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

Silvertip, I guess we'll never get a good answer to that question. How can you prove it? You can't.

 

[jtexas]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

I don't know Ladyfish's mechanic's customer base, but is it unreasonable to believe that he's got five customers running 70's or even 60's era fuel pumps with diaphram failure brought about by E-10 fuel?

 

[LadyFish]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

jtexas, he's been a Johnson mechanic for well over 30 years right here in my neighborhood where everyone lives on the water and owns a boat. He's well respected and knows his stuff or he wouldn't have survived this long in the business.

After he told us this and then I read the article in the local paper I thought it was a good post for discussion purposes so that we can get to the bottom of the issue.

I'm not sure about it and was hoping to educate myself a little further. If he is right it really makes my blood boil to think that the government can approve the use of soemthing without warning that can potentionally damage your personal property.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

If we indeed are talking 60's and 70's era engines here, certainly E10 can affect the components that are not compatible with E10. My contention however, is that one or two tanks of E10 does not immediately cause component failure. Clogging from loosened gunk -- yes. I've been around the block a time or two and I really question the wisdom of some automotive writers, many of whom have never held a wrench in their hand. If E10 was as bad as everyone seems to think it is, the roads and waterways in the midwest would be strewn with dead cars and boats. It simply is way overblown. No, I don't work for Archer Daniels Midland or the oil companies. Actually, I've been retired for several years.

 

[Texasmark]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

I too have fuel lines (the chartruce ones) melt on chain saws and I never ran them on ethanol. You'd think those guys would use a hose that gas and it's components didn't attack.

Back on the old engine problems, like I said, the marine industry has only started to cope with alcohol for the last 15ish years. :%

Mark

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

Silvertip, I think what Ladyfish is relating to is very possible....I've actually been in her boat..I've witnessed the perfect and preventative care it has received.
I likely wouldn't say alot about this issue, but I also have been in this business with my Father for many years, and in the last 2 years, I've received and installed carb kits, pump diaphrams and other components said to be ethanol resistant, that came back, some within a few months, with gaskets turned to nothing but goo, and I'm not talking about just after-market goods...OEM as well.
Some do, some don't seem to be affected.
There are countless components in a fuel system that can be liquified to "some" extent, and still make it through filters, screens, etc. But, in believing that once the goo has been desolved is a false sense of security because there are other components that may continue to "slowly" be eaten by ethanol.
Alcohol can and is used as a thinning agent for both epoxy resin and polyester resin-not always, but it "can" be used.
What I'm saying is I don't feel Ladyfish's thoughts and worries are un-justified...we still don't know 100% what Ethanol is going to affect.
Another factor is how the Ethanol is made and the actual number of plants now making/producing this product, and it's already been proven here in KANSAS that some 10% blends tested as high as 22%, although those mixing it are following guidelines that could be set by the guy next door, as the Gov't hasn't gotten a strong hold on Q.C. as they would like to.....yet.
I rebuilt my carbs on my 200 last year and specifically ordered Ethanol-proof kits-I made sure of that.....within 2 months I had to do it again because the bowl gaskets started leaking and pooching out. Of course this meant a follow-up on the entire system, and I raised a huge stink over this with my supplier who happens to also be the manufacture of this particular line of products and I went back to OEM and when the OEM gaskets went, they would not replace the kits as I was told I must be using some other additive in my fuel that caused this.....well, I wasn't. I finally found a supplier of kits that said they had tested them extensively with Ethanol and were said to be the best they had found...That set is going on a year now, but I no-longer use Ethanol.
Were they bad gaskets? was it the fuel that the OEM said was not a problem? I don't care to find out again, but I have the option of running non-ethanol fuel, some don't. Do I think the ethanol causes/can cause problems? Yes, I do.

 

[Texasmark]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

So Kenny, since you are a midwesterner, how do you find fuel up there without alki in it? I thought it was mandated and that's all that was available. :%

Mark

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

Very far from the truth....I'd say less than 30% of the pump stations have ethanol available. Our local coop has it..in fact, they have E-85 also of which the manager tells me they average about 40 gallons a week...only knew of 3 pick-ups that were E-85 Rated as far as local folks...

 

[jtexas]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

Mark, outside the DFW metroplex they have MTBE fuel - you might be thinking of oxygenated vs. non-oxygenated. Alky is only required in the highly-polluted counties.

Don't know if this is true nationwide, but here they won't deliver E-10 via pipeline to truck x-fer stations because of water in the pipelines. So the ethanol is trucked in and mixed in the gasoline delivery trucks at the transfer station. So 10% could be more of an estimate than actual measurement. I guess that means the octane rating at the pump can vary as well - I hadn't thought about that.

With all the trucks carrying alcohol, I wonder what is the net environmental improvement?

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

Exactly my point...it's mixed on site, I've seen it done at our Coop here....it's about as precise as holding an oil jug of 2-stroke lube and guessing at how much to put in for 34.75 gallons of fuel....do ya just pour in enough to cover 36 gal? They aren't very precise on that and someone needs to have control of that, but I don't know who....

 

[Texasmark]

Re: Effects of ethanol on outboard engines

Well that makes sense as I have only seen one station in Melissa that had ethanol stickers on the pumps eluding to the fact that maybe it was coming to the metroplex.

The rest of the stations all use reformulated gas, whatever that means.

I know one thing. I used to have an '88 Ford pu that pinged going up a (certain) hill back in the time between when I bought it and '98. Then around '96ish they changed the fuel blend and the truck quit pinging and I never used 87 octane in anything after that and never had pinging. I really like that.

I am unaware of the current status of MTBE here. Maybe I am getting oxygenated fuel. Makes sense as the oxygen would help the fuel to combust in the chamber so I would get more btu's out of it and hence quit precombusting.

Mark