Engines deseils after being shut off either by key or kill switch

topper

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Engines deseils after engine has been shut dow n (185
Mercruiser 4 Cyl). Could this be timing?
 

180shabah

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Re: Engines deseils after being shut off either by key or kill switch

Could be timing advanced too far, could be bad or wrong gas, or most likely it is being caused by carbon buildup in the combustion chamber.
 

Don S

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Re: Engines deseils after being shut off either by key or kill switch

The main 2 causes for dieseling are idle rpm and cool down time. If you drop off plain and immediatly shut it off, they will always diesel. Allow them to idle for a minute or two before shutting off.
The other reason is idle rpm. That engine should idle at 650 to 700 rpm. Over that and it will diesel.
But to answer your question, yes, timing can cause it diesel. If you have a points distributor, be sure the dwell is correct before setting the timing and make sure the advance is working properly.
Here is a service bulletin Mercruiser put out on dieseling.

http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Bullet/97/97_17.pdf
 

bruceb58

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Re: Engines deseils after being shut off either by key or kill switch

I still don't see how timing can cause this. Once you turn off the ignition, there is no spark so the timing should not be relevant.
 

bjcsc

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Re: Engines deseils after being shut off either by key or kill switch

bruceb58 said:
I still don't see how timing can cause this. Once you turn off the ignition, there is no spark so the timing should not be relevant.

Incorrect timing can create hot spots in cylinders, on edges of heads, valves, etc...when run hard, some parts normally get hot enough to continue ignition thus the "cool down" before shutdown.

edit: Don S: if this were a duel I guess we'd both be dead...
 

Don S

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Re: Engines deseils after being shut off either by key or kill switch

When the timing is out, everything else has to be out of adjustment in order to make it seem like it's running right.
There is excess fuel, hot spots, excess carbon, all kinds of things that builds up and causes the fuel/air mixture in the cylinders to fire at the wrong time and cause the engine to run backwards. It creates it's own ignition on something other than the spark from the spark plug. That's why it's called "Dieseling"------ Ever seen a spark plug in a diesel? Or what happens when you put gas in a diesel engine instead of diesel? :0
 

aggiedave98

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Re: Engines deseils after being shut off either by key or kill switch

Don said:
Or what happens when you put gas in a diesel engine instead of diesel? :0


Don, no. What does happen (seriously). Thanks.
 

bjcsc

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Re: Engines deseils after being shut off either by key or kill switch

Not much. If it will even run, typically the IP freezes up and that's it. Many people run "blenders", i.e RUG + SVO, esp. on the west coast. An overfilled crankcase on a diesel, now that's excitement!

Here's some more info on the timing advance issue:

7.4 What is the effect of changing the ignition timing?

The tendency to knock increases as spark advance is increased. For an engine
with recommended 6 degrees BTDC ( Before Top Dead Centre ) timing and 93
octane fuel, retarding the spark 4 degrees lowers the octane requirement to
91, whereas advancing it 8 degrees requires 96 octane fuel [27]. It should
be noted this requirement depends on engine design. If you advance the spark,
the flame front starts earlier, and the end gases start forming earlier in
the cycle, providing more time for the autoigniting species to form before
the piston reaches the optimum position for power delivery, as determined by
the normal flame front propagation. It becomes a race between the flame front
and decomposition of the increasingly-squashed end gases. High octane fuels
produce end gases that take longer to autoignite, so the good flame front
reaches and consumes them properly.

The ignition advance map is partly determined by the fuel the engine is
intended to use. The timing of the spark is advanced sufficiently to ensure
that the fuel-air mixture burns in such a way that maximum pressure of the
burning charge is about 15-20 degree after TDC. Knock will occur before
this point, usually in the late compression - early power stroke period.
The engine management system uses ignition timing as one of the major
variables that is adjusted if knock is detected. If very low octane fuels
are used ( several octane numbers below the vehicle's requirement at optimal
settings ), both performance and fuel economy will decrease.

The actual Octane Number Requirement depends on the engine design, but for
some 1978 vehicles using standard fuels, the following (R+M)/2 Octane
Requirements were measured. "Standard" is the recommended ignition timing
for the engine, probably a few degrees BTDC [38].

Basic Ignition Timing
Vehicle Retarded 5 degrees/ Standard/ Advanced 5 degrees
A 88/ 91/ 93
B 86/ 90.5/ 94.5
C 85.5/ 88/ 90
D 84/ 87.5/ 91
E 82.5/ 87/ 90

The actual ignition timing to achieve the maximum pressure from normal
combustion of gasoline will depend mainly on the speed of the engine and the
flame propagation rates in the engine. Knock increases the rate of the
pressure rise, thus superimposing additional pressure on the normal
combustion pressure rise. The knock actually rapidly resonates around the
chamber, creating a series of abnormal sharp spikes on the pressure diagram.
The normal flame speed is fairly consistent for most gasoline HCs, regardless
of octane rating, but the flame speed is affected by stoichiometry. Note that
the flame speeds in this FAQ are not the actual engine flame speeds. A 12:1
CR gasoline engine at 1500 rpm would have a flame speed of about 16.5 m/s,
and a similar hydrogen engine yields 48.3 m/s, but such engine flame speeds
are also very dependent on stoichiometry.

source: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part3/section-1.html
 

richet

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Feb 23, 2006
Messages
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Re: Engines deseils after being shut off either by key or kill switch

I had the dieselling problem and adjusted the idle down and the problem is gone.
 

Silvertip

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Re: Engines deseils after being shut off either by key or kill switch

There is a rather simple fix for engines that have a chronic dieseling problem. If idle speed and timing are correct and the engine operates normally but still has a tendency to diesel even after a minute or two of cool down, an anti dieseling solenoid can be added to the carb. These were used on virtually all 70's and later cars up until the introduction of fuel injection for this very reason. At normal idle, the throttle plates are cracked open a bit and idle speed is set with the idle stop screw. The anti diesel solenoid is energized anytime the ignition is turned on and idle speed is set by adjusting the threaded end of the plunger of the solenoid rather than the idle stop screw. When extended the plunger pops out to set the throttle at what had previously been normal idle speed. The idle stop screw can now be turned out so the throttle plates can completely close when the key is turned off. Even a diesel needs air to run. To see what this looks like, visit your library and look at any service manual (GM, Chiltons, etc.) for any 1970's - 1985 engine. It mounts to the base of the carb. There should be a gazillion of them in the junk yards and if I dug around in my junk drawers I could probably turn up one or two. Half an hour job to install and only one wire to connect. Again, this is a fix for a chronic problem and is not a solution for other engine mechanical problems. If you are running a modified engine where dieseling may be a problem -- this might take care of that problem.
 

Don S

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Re: Engines deseils after being shut off either by key or kill switch

Can I assume those solenoids are CG certified to be used on a marine application?
Even if they were CG approved, the way the throttle cables are designed and setup, they wouldn't work. The accelerator cables and linkage used on those old carbs was controlled by a spring to bring it back to idle. The throttle cable on a boat is set with friction so it will stay where you put it at any speed. Therefor you wouln't have that last little bit of free play so the solenoid would work.
 
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