Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

[madhtr]

It turns out that old 2-stroke outboards don't play really nicely with gas/ethanol mixes ...

Ethanol Bad

Yet, as a new boater, and an old private pilot ...

100LL Avgas is still straight Gas

You know why, right? Because it's BAD to have an engine failure in an aircraft.

So ... as a fairly experienced private pilot, and a novice boater, I'm wondering ....

Is it LESS bad to have an engine failure miles from shore on a single engine boat?

If it's not, why can't I buy straight 80 octaine (unmixed with ethanol) for my outboard?

 

[nphilbro]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

Well, I personally hate ethanol for my motor, but it gives me a steady supply of carb rebuilds.

I haven't actually had any gas-a-hol failures with my motors since I replaced all the lines in the motor and tank with alcohol safe lines and have new gaskets and floats in the carbs. I also don't use fuel more than 6 weeks old (what a pain when you have a 50 gallon tank!) but don't fuel with much more than I plan on using when messing around on freshwater (but keep a 2 gallon can as a spare). I also use Stabil additive with each gas-up.

There are several marinas up here on the Puget Sound that offer ethanol-free fuel. It sucks paying $5/gallon for 30-40 gallons of 91 octane non-ethanol fuel but when trekking out for 50-150 miles in waters that can turn into tidal-torrents it's worth the peace of mind.

I live just a few miles from a small airport that I know sells leaded gas for the planes. I haven't considered my need that great for that since the 2-stroke TW-3 oil compensates for the lead.

 

[Triton II]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

Madhatter, as you know, 100LL has tetraethyl lead in it and, in aircraft, the mixture is leaned to prevent lead fouling as height increases. My aircraft is fitted with a Lycoming O-235C1A which even needs leaning on the ground at sea-level airfields. My concern is that using 100LL in your outboard will cause plug fouling. That is apart from any legal issues with using 100LL in anything other than aircraft, which is a real problem here in Australia, so it would pay to check if it's legal where you are. Also 100LL is $2 per litre here (or about $7.50 per US gallon), so maybe that $5 per gallon for 91 non ethanol fuel mentioned above is good value? Good luck,

TII

 

[madhtr]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

Well, I personally hate ethanol for my motor, but it gives me a steady supply of carb rebuilds..

heh TY for the info on that straight 80 IS actually available.

 

[madhtr]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

Madhatter, as you know, 100LL has tetraethyl lead in it and, in aircraft, the mixture is leaned to prevent lead fouling as height increases. My aircraft is fitted with a Lycoming O-235C1A which even needs leaning on the ground at sea-level airfields. My concern is that using 100LL in your outboard will cause plug fouling.

True ... Good point. I think I'll try some other stuff first, TY

... That is apart from any legal issues with using 100LL in anything other than aircraft, which is a real problem here in Australia, so it would pay to check if it's legal where you are. Also 100LL is $2 per litre here (or about $7.50 per US gallon), so maybe that $5 per gallon for 91 non ethanol fuel mentioned above is good value? Good luck,

TY Triton, good points. but (as I'm sure you'll know as an aviator) My concern is first placed with getting my souls on board safely back to shore rather than legalities ... It seems to me that maritime (from which all aviation borrowed all sorts of navigation and other things) can be as unforgiving as aviation in all sorts of ways, and I don't understand why our carbs are allowed to be fouled 2 miles offshore against the tide, while I (and you) can put a C-172 down in just about any field beneath us. I'd pay $5.00 a gallon for gas that won't wreck my motor, but I can't get it in inland WV, MD, or VA. (that I know of .... If I'm wrong, please let me know )

 

[nphilbro]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

My concern is first placed with getting my souls on board safely back to shore rather than legalities ..

Force motors are extremely reliable for the first half of the trip, regardless of what they are burning.

 

[madhtr]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

Force motors are extremely reliable for the first half of the trip, regardless of what they are burning.

lol

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

Not worth it. That's the short answer.

Save your money and just keep the Force motor in tune and be sure to empty the carbs when stored.

I ran Av Gas when I raced and the cost is no where near the results.

 

[metriccrescentwrench]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

Not worth it. That's the short answer.

Save your money and just keep the Force motor in tune and be sure to empty the carbs when stored.

There ya' go.

We've had ethanol in gasoline since the mid 1980's, and engine's built since then should be able to tolerate it. The only gasoline/ethanol related issues I've ever seen have been deterioration of cheap fuel line (after about 10 or 12 years), and carbs that have sat for a very long time with gas in them getting gummed up.

 

[Brewman61]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

You may be able to buy non-ethanol gas in your area, there are several web sites which list places that sell this stuff. Just google for ethanol free gas, or something like that. I can get it about a mile from my home, costs maybe $0.50 per gallon more than plain pump gas, but way cheaper than the $5/gallon the marina charges.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

It turns out that old 2-stroke outboards don't play really nicely with gas/ethanol mixes ...

Ethanol Bad

Yet, as a new boater, and an old private pilot ...

100LL Avgas is still straight Gas

You know why, right? Because it's BAD to have an engine failure in an aircraft.

So ... as a fairly experienced private pilot, and a novice boater, I'm wondering ....

Is it LESS bad to have an engine failure miles from shore on a single engine boat?

If it's not, why can't I buy straight 80 octaine (unmixed with ethanol) for my outboard?

Much of what was discussed in the link was misinformation and misunderstanding of the product.

There are no issues using E-10 in a 2 stroke or a 4 stroke, they have been designed to run it since around 1990. The problem people do run into is in switching from E-0 to E-10, the E-10 will clean out all the gunk in the system and possibly plug the carbs or injectors, this has nothing to do with E-10 being "bad" for the motor. Seeing as we here in Washington have run it for more than 20 years we may have a little experience with it. As for fuel lines and other components... there is cheap junk on the market that won't old up to a steady diet of E-10, if you happen to get some this fuel line or other stuff then it may have problems, OEM stuff normally has no issues. I will say the stuff made in China can be labeled in any way they want, they will happily print Ethanol resistant on anything, even to the OEM market.

http://www.mercurymarine.com/servic...faqs/mercruiser/?category=ethanol#MercEthanol

http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/december/ethanol.asp

 

[madhtr]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

ok thanks for the info everyone

 

[Rancherlee]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

It turns out that old 2-stroke outboards don't play really nicely with gas/ethanol mixes ...

Ethanol Bad

Yet, as a new boater, and an old private pilot ...

100LL Avgas is still straight Gas

You know why, right? Because it's BAD to have an engine failure in an aircraft.

So ... as a fairly experienced private pilot, and a novice boater, I'm wondering ....

Is it LESS bad to have an engine failure miles from shore on a single engine boat?

If it's not, why can't I buy straight 80 octaine (unmixed with ethanol) for my outboard?

Sorry to say, but E10 did NOT kill that guys injector. That Yamaha F150 has the same Bosch style injectors that millions of cars run with NO ISSUES WHAT SO EVER on E10. I've got an old 88' F150 with 275,000 miles on it with nothing but E-10 run through it and all 6 injectors are still working just fine. The only damage I've EVER seen E10 do is foul up carburetors/rubber fuel lines that haven't been upgraded to alcohol friendly stuff. Its should be noted that I don not like the Idea of using our food supply for fuel, BUT alot of engine related issues get blamed on E-10 when they really shouldn't be.

 

[Swinerton]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

Everyone wants to jump on the E10 boycott bandwagon. I love E10. It's BETTER for keeping fuel systems clean, and slightly oxygenated.

E10 will not affect any fuel lines, even on old motors. E85 on the other hand can. The only problem with running E10 in fuel systems, is when an older fuel system see E10 for it's first time, or has been run for years on non ethanol fuel. The alcohol acts like a weak solvent, and will strip all the filmy deposits inside a fuel system, and them them upstream. Clogging filters, and sometimes the smallest orifices.

On a 100% spotless fuel system, E10 will have ZERO affects, AND keep the fuel system spotless.

The E10 haters are just that..... I've run E10 in hundreds of small engines, ever since it started being put into gasoline, as early as 1997. Never had one issue that I could blame on the low 10% Ethanol content.

 

[Triton II]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

Never had one issue that I could blame on the low 10% Ethanol content.

Why then does Yamaha Motor Australia state that E10 should NOT be used for their outboards? Boats are in a naturally moist environment and I understand that ethanol in your fuel tank can attract water, and it's the water that does the damage?

Just wondering!

TII

 

[Swinerton]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

Why then does Yamaha Motor Australia state that E10 should NOT be used for their outboards? Boats are in a naturally moist environment and I understand that ethanol in your fuel tank can attract water, and it's the water that does the damage?

Just wondering!

TII

One reason.. WARRANTY... Even though it will not harm the engine or fuel system in anyway, so many people are mis-guided about E10 fuel, and blame almost everything on it. How do you tell hundreds upon hundreds of people that running E10 is harmless, but then still have to honor the warranty for something else????

Another thing..... Ethanol does absorb water yes, but people should be responsible enough to keep their fuel tanks sealed when not in use. Also, adding about 1oz of methanol/isopropyl per 5 gallons of gas, is a great make shift fuel stabilizer.

 

[tx1961whaler]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

Why then does Yamaha Motor Australia state that E10 should NOT be used for their outboards? Boats are in a naturally moist environment and I understand that ethanol in your fuel tank can attract water, and it's the water that does the damage?

I guess I see a different site in the US:

Are Yamaha engines compatible with E10 fuel?
All current models as well as most engines built since the late 1980’s have been designed with fuel system components that are tolerant to fresh fuel containing ethanol up to 10% (E10). Outboard fuel systems can still be affected by: water, dissolved gum, varnish, corrosion particles, and dissolved resins that E10 fuel has cleaned from the distribution system and your boat’s fuel tanks.

http://www.yamahaoutboards.com/owner-resources/FAQ/ethanol-topics

 

[Triton II]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

Interesting, thanks txw. Non-ethanol fuel is still readily available in Australia... is that the case in the USA or have you been politically forced to use E-10? It's the Australian version of the owner's manual for my 2009 F115 that clearly states NOT to use any fuel with ethanol in it, every marina I've been to over here sells non-ethanol fuel, and generally boaties avoid it like the plague. But they do so because of the negatives as pointed out in Q&A from the site above:

Q. What are the negative properties of ethanol?


A. Ethanol has several properties that contribute to fuel system issues.

• Ethanol is a strong cleaner (solvent).

• Ethanol is hygroscopic (e.g., it has a strong attraction to moisture).

• E10 fuel’s usable life span may be less than the normal length of off season boat storage.

Maybe our dislike here in Australia is from ignorance, maybe not, I'm open to be educated. However the YMA site states NOT to use ethanol based fuels in any of their motorcycles, ATVs and SSVs but curiously doesn't mention outboards:

http://www.yamaha-motor.com.au/supp...-designed-to-operate-on-ethanol-blended-fuels

TII

 

[yorab]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

Just for a bit more info, there is a sticky on the topic of ethanol.

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Ethanol and outboard motors ... Can I run my force 50 on 100LL avgas?

Maybe our dislike here in Australia is from ignorance, maybe not, I'm open to be educated. However the YMA site states NOT to use ethanol based fuels in any of their motorcycles, ATVs and SSVs but curiously doesn't mention outboards:



TII

Just a side comment....... fuel blending and refining varies greatly from country to country. There is no dilike or ignorance..... it could just be the way things are blended. Many of the Americans here who have traveled to Mexico can attest to varied fuel refinements and blending and it even varies here in the USA from state to state.

I have read the AU sites about E-10 and it does give interesting warnings.

I guess we are all limited to go with what is available.