Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

[HS91_Mike]

I have a '97 Johonson OR 175, which had new carb kits installed about 18 months ago. Recently, started having problems in the mid-range and took it back to the shop again. Mechanic reported carbs being gummed up.

I use Shell gasoline- mid-range or 93 octane fuel (premixed, I removed the VRO pump) and add StarTron fuel treatment with every fill up to try to offset the effects of the ethanol. I run the boat offshore about 1x per month.

18 months after the previous carb job, I am having carb problems again. Is this normal? Is there any product out there that will reduce the effects of ehtanol in fuel? The mechanic has recommended adding nothing to the fuel and that 90% of the fuel addititves are ~90% ethanol, methenol or some other alcohol. Any advice on this issue is much appreciated.

Mike

 

[JimS123]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

Doesn't sound like an ethanol problem, per se'. Ethanol cleans dirty systems and dissolves gunk - it doesn't make more gunk. Maybe your fuel tank needs cleaning.

 

[HS91_Mike]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

Fuel system, lines, seperator, filter are less than 1 yo. The tank was purged and manually cleaned (I removed about 2 gal of varnish/gum from the bottom of an 80 gal tank with an intrisic peristaltic pump) about 18 months ago. The only original part in the fuel system is the pick-up, which was in good shape about 18 months ago.

I disagree with you on the "it doesnt make more gunk". The gunk in the bottom of my tank was due to moisture accumulation and ethanol is hydraphilic, but I have not seen any varnish/moisture in the fuel/water separator. If gunk sucked into the fuel line, it should have been caught here before it made it to the carbs.

 

[RRitt]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

I did a whole bunch of reading and internet surfing on this topic. The problem comes from three sources. Ethanol dissolves certain types of rubber and varnish that petroleum does not. This can either simply eat a hole in some seals or dissolve material from one area and deposit it into another. Ethanol will absorb moisture from the air and cause your fuel to have water problems and/or you tanks to have rust problems. Engines that are run frequently don't usually have a much problem with water absorption. Ethanol burns hotter than gas and cause small aircooled engines to overheat. For example your old weed whacker might overheat and burn out on ethanol simply because it wasn't designed for hot burning fuel.

Most marinas and some gas stations sell a recreational grade of gas that does not contain any ethanol. If you only use your boat once a month then maybe you should consider paying a premium for fuel that does not turn into gasawaterahol over time.

 

[HS91_Mike]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

Thank you for the input. I wish that I could still find MTBE gasoline, but all of the service stations and even the local marina carry E10 gasoline. And there is legislation on the FL books which will allow for the sale of E15, or gasoline containing up to 15% ethanol, out there.

Is there a fuel treatment or alternative out there or should I plan on rebuilding carburators after every 50-60 hours? I obviously had less than good luck with Starbrite Startron products.

 

[whit71]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

Sta-Bill makes an ethanol treatment dont know how well it works, we can still get ethanol free gas here in SC. good luck

 

[JimS123]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

Fuel system, lines, seperator, filter are less than 1 yo. The tank was purged and manually cleaned (I removed about 2 gal of varnish/gum from the bottom of an 80 gal tank with an intrisic peristaltic pump) about 18 months ago. The only original part in the fuel system is the pick-up, which was in good shape about 18 months ago.

I disagree with you on the "it doesnt make more gunk". The gunk in the bottom of my tank was due to moisture accumulation and ethanol is hydraphilic, but I have not seen any varnish/moisture in the fuel/water separator. If gunk sucked into the fuel line, it should have been caught here before it made it to the carbs.

Ethanol does NOT MAKE gunk, it just dissolves what you already have so it can move around more easily.

Well its not like it happened after a couple of weeks, so its not an acute problem. A lot happens in 18 months.

Just thinking outloud here....

Are you sure the tank was 100 % clean? If it had just an ounce of gunk left in it, it may have just taken 18 months to find its way to the carbs, due to the fact that the ethanol was continually cleaning the system. But, since your water separator and fuel filters are OK, then the gunk must be forming afterwards.

Your usage is light. Do you drain the carbs after each use or let it sit in there, only to evaporate and leave gunk behind?

I personally think the ethanol problem is somewhat overblown. I haven't looked inside my 1984 permanent tanks, but my 1964 portable tanks are sparkling clean inside. I run my carbs dry after each use Now, I realize that does not empty the carb 100%, but it certainly leaves a lot less to evaporate.

After a new cleanout, I'd try running the carbs dry after each use.

 

[grub_ba76]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

go but some ethanol fuel put it in a jar and watch what it does after a month or so.
im no expert but from experience i have seen ethanol fuel turn to jelly in a week and had to pull carbs apart 3 times cause my bro wouldn't listen to me about not using it in a boat.
his motor wouldn't run proberly so i pulled the carbs off and they were full of jelly and glogged every thing up, so i clean, soaked..new filters,hoses and flushed out the fuel tank as it had lots of jelly in it. took for a run and it went fine(with premium fuel)....i didnt know for sure but i told me bro not to use that fuel. but he didnt believe me and used that cheap **** again .
then after running the boat for 3 minutes it coughed splurted etc.
he come back and said its doing it again. i said where ya get ya fuel from and he goes i put ethanol in it cause its cheaper...i bit my tongue and thought ffs im doing this for nothing..
so i pulled carbs apart again and it was fuel of jelly again as was tank and it was only a week ago i cleaned it all. so i done it all again and put premium in it and it ran fine. 2 weeks later i get a call thats its doing it again ...
i swore at him cause he used ethanol again, so once more i cleaned ,took for a 2 hour run and it was fine...told him to only use premium and if he used the cheap **** again i would charge him $200 if i had to do it again...he finly listened and hasn't had a problem in 2 years..
im no fuel expert but i seen ethanol fuel turn jelly 3 times in a mater of weeks but when premium was used it never happened....ethanol might be all right in a car but in a boat where it sits for weeks it goes stale and looks like it seperates...as where premium takes alot longer to go stale..
i know they say ethanol wont hurt ur car but thats only the government saying it for pollution reasons....cause if it where true why to they make cars and they say its built to run on ethanol.....here in australia theres a tv ad about a new car being compatable with ethanol fuel??? why would they say it wont hurt older motors if there building new cars to take it...
nearly every out board mechanic here ive spoke to said NEVER use ethanol in a out board as it goes stale to quick and doesnt like sitting around.
i will never use it cause ive seen it with my own eyes, it turned to jelly in a glass jar and made rubber o rings rough looking..and it can be abrasive to parts....i know people say its fine etc but its not its all about the governments and pollution. theres nothing good about it.

 

[JimS123]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

go but some ethanol fuel put it in a jar and watch what it does after a month or so.
im no expert but from experience i have seen ethanol fuel turn to jelly in a week and had to pull carbs apart 3 times cause my bro wouldn't listen to me about not using it in a boat.
his motor wouldn't run proberly so i pulled the carbs off and they were full of jelly and glogged every thing up, so i clean, soaked..new filters,hoses and flushed out the fuel tank as it had lots of jelly in it. took for a run and it went fine(with premium fuel)....i didnt know for sure but i told me bro not to use that fuel. but he didnt believe me and used that cheap **** again .
then after running the boat for 3 minutes it coughed splurted etc.
he come back and said its doing it again. i said where ya get ya fuel from and he goes i put ethanol in it cause its cheaper...i bit my tongue and thought ffs im doing this for nothing..
so i pulled carbs apart again and it was fuel of jelly again as was tank and it was only a week ago i cleaned it all. so i done it all again and put premium in it and it ran fine. 2 weeks later i get a call thats its doing it again ...
i swore at him cause he used ethanol again, so once more i cleaned ,took for a 2 hour run and it was fine...told him to only use premium and if he used the cheap **** again i would charge him $200 if i had to do it again...he finly listened and hasn't had a problem in 2 years..
im no fuel expert but i seen ethanol fuel turn jelly 3 times in a mater of weeks but when premium was used it never happened....ethanol might be all right in a car but in a boat where it sits for weeks it goes stale and looks like it seperates...as where premium takes alot longer to go stale..
i know they say ethanol wont hurt ur car but thats only the government saying it for pollution reasons....cause if it where true why to they make cars and they say its built to run on ethanol.....here in australia theres a tv ad about a new car being compatable with ethanol fuel??? why would they say it wont hurt older motors if there building new cars to take it...
nearly every out board mechanic here ive spoke to said NEVER use ethanol in a out board as it goes stale to quick and doesnt like sitting around.
i will never use it cause ive seen it with my own eyes, it turned to jelly in a glass jar and made rubber o rings rough looking..and it can be abrasive to parts....i know people say its fine etc but its not its all about the governments and pollution. theres nothing good about it.

I'll reiterate what I said before. Ethanol issues are overblown.

I don't know about Australia, but I doubt its that much of an issue in the USA. I take care of my boats very well, but I don't go to extremes about my lawnmowers and stuff. they sit for months on end with no maintenance and I never saw gelling or anything that wouldn't make the engine run.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

This is yet another rant about ethanol that will likely continue because the uninformed continue to make problems where they don't exist. I have posted many times on this topic and have included pictures of ethanol in clear containers that have sat for six months with no significant visible separation. I have an open container in my shed as we speak that has been there all summer with no hint of moisture. Here in the tundra we've also been ethanol users since 1997 and have had no issues except for the actual "known issue" of attacking non-ethanol tolerant rubber and plastic parts. My care runs on E85 and sits for weeks at a time with zero issues. If the fuel system was already dirty when you started using ethanol, that gunk WILL be cleaned up and deposited in filters. So you see -- the problem is NOT ethanol, it is years of fuel system neglect (as in not using fuel system treatment). There are issues on the coasts or on boats with very large tanks that don't get used frequently. Those boats seem to have higher moisture related issues.

 

[bass or bass ?]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

Thank you for the input. I wish that I could still find MTBE gasoline, but all of the service stations and even the local marina carry E10 gasoline. And there is legislation on the FL books which will allow for the sale of E15, or gasoline containing up to 15% ethanol, out there.

Is there a fuel treatment or alternative out there or should I plan on rebuilding carburators after every 50-60 hours? I obviously had less than good luck with Starbrite Startron products.

i have used Star-Tron and Sta-Bil Marine. I was not particularly happy with the results using Star-Tron, however,I AM very pleased with the performance of Sta-Bil Marine. I recommend switching. You can mix the two products without causing any problems.
Also, my motor is an oldie, 1967 Evinrude Starflite 80hp. Using Sta-Bil for 3 years now and I have not had any rubber component breakdown anywhere in my fuel system. And I have been using fuel with E-10 the entire time.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

There are no additives that can do anything about the real issues with E10 (or E 15,20,30), which is phase separation, the only thing they can do is help the fuel to last longer in storage.

The turning to jelly comment is seen when Ethanol is mixed with fuel containing MTBE and then some water is introduced, this combination can form a goo that can plug things up. I haven't seen this happen myself because MTBE was banned here long ago. By the way, we've only used E10 for about 20 years, and in that time period I've had problems with one carb, it was late 60's 6 HP Evinrude. There was a cork washer near the high speed jet that fell apart and plugged things up, that cork washer was only 30 years old, you'd think things should last longer than that, must be that evil E10.

I would rather not use E10, but I have no choice, and for the most part neither myself nor my boating friends have any issues with it.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

My area made the switch to E-10 5 years ago.

At that time, I drained both tanks and cleaned them. I also replaced all the fuel lines from the fuel tanks and the carbs and rebuilt the carbs. Five years later and the only related fuel problem I've had was the time I was doused with water at a local filling station. Siphoned the water off the bottom of the tank and never looked back. I might pick up a teaspoon or so out of the Racor if I don't use the boat for several weeks but nothing really to worry about. The only additive I use is Stabil and I only use that if I'm not going to run the boat for another several weeks.

Did you change the fuel lines on the motor as well?

 

[RRitt]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

This is yet another rant about ethanol that will likely continue because the uninformed continue to make problems where they don't exist. I have posted many times on this topic and have included pictures of ethanol in clear containers that have sat for six months with no significant visible separation. I have an open container in my shed as we speak that has been there all summer with no hint of moisture. Here in the tundra we've also been ethanol users since 1997 and have had no issues except for the actual "known issue" of attacking non-ethanol tolerant rubber and plastic parts. My care runs on E85 and sits for weeks at a time with zero issues. If the fuel system was already dirty when you started using ethanol, that gunk WILL be cleaned up and deposited in filters. So you see -- the problem is NOT ethanol, it is years of fuel system neglect (as in not using fuel system treatment). There are issues on the coasts or on boats with very large tanks that don't get used frequently. Those boats seem to have higher moisture related issues.

thanks for setting me straight. After years and years of reliable service every single one of my small gas engines quit running within a few months of each other. The guy at the shop said it was ethanol. I've owned a wide variety of chain saw, lawn mowers, outboards, weed whackers, etc and never had any significant reliability issues. So when they all blew up at once and the professional mechanic guy said it was ethanol I took his word for it. But hey, thanks for setting me straight. It was all just one huge collosal coincidence. Not the least bit related to ethanol. I would never have thought so without your advice.

 

[Dhadley]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

Once you get the carbs apart you'll know what the cause is. Might be small black specs in there. Might be water. Might be...??? We won't know until you look. Might have someting to do with running a grade of fuel not recommended by the OE. Running issues can be caused by a lot of things. Might not even be a carb issue......

 

[metriccrescentwrench]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

When I was in college I worked for a prof doing lab work pertaining to ......... ethanol in fuel. I spent hour after hour mixing various ratios of ethanol with gasoline and other compounds and measuring how well ethanol stayed in solution. Some of the work involved adding water to see how much it would take before water came out of solution. (An interesting tidbit - we were using 100% pure ethanol with no denaturing additives, the govt. was picky about who could get their hands on that because no liquor tax was paid on it.) My prof wound up getting really really rich from that research.

Anyway, I gotta' completely agree with silvertip. Gaskets, fuel lines, diaphragms, etc. etc. made in the last 15 or 20 years are made to tolerate ethanol in fuel. Sure, it's possible to get a bad batch of gas, but that's not because of ethanol (it was possible to get bad gas before ethanol as well). Use a known good fuel additive (I've had good luck with both OMC and Stabil Marine) and a good filter separator and you'll greatly reduce chances of problems. I use whatever gas is the cheapest, with no regard to brand and have had zero issues.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

thanks for setting me straight. After years and years of reliable service every single one of my small gas engines quit running within a few months of each other. The guy at the shop said it was ethanol. I've owned a wide variety of chain saw, lawn mowers, outboards, weed whackers, etc and never had any significant reliability issues. So when they all blew up at once and the professional mechanic guy said it was ethanol I took his word for it. But hey, thanks for setting me straight. It was all just one huge collosal coincidence. Not the least bit related to ethanol. I would never have thought so without your advice.

I guess every one of my toys should have blown up about 20 years ago and no small engine should ever be able to run in this state. I better call my friends and let them know their stuff doesn't really run and its just a mass hallucination.

Yes you can have problems when first switching over, that?s what ST said, its because the ethanol is such a good cleaning agent all the crap in the tank is flushed through the system.

 

[Mac3]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

 

[grub_ba76]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

This is yet another rant about ethanol that will likely continue because the uninformed continue to make problems where they don't exist. I have posted many times on this topic and have included pictures of ethanol in clear containers that have sat for six months with no significant visible separation. I have an open container in my shed as we speak that has been there all summer with no hint of moisture. Here in the tundra we've also been ethanol users since 1997 and have had no issues except for the actual "known issue" of attacking non-ethanol tolerant rubber and plastic parts. My care runs on E85 and sits for weeks at a time with zero issues. If the fuel system was already dirty when you started using ethanol, that gunk WILL be cleaned up and deposited in filters. So you see -- the problem is NOT ethanol, it is years of fuel system neglect (as in not using fuel system treatment). There are issues on the coasts or on boats with very large tanks that don't get used frequently. Those boats seem to have higher moisture related issues.

as i said after the first time every thing was replaced and fuel tank was one of them portable ones that u can see into and was fully cleaned out...so how could there be dirt deposits for the ethonol to break it done if there was nothing in tank,fuel lines or filters cause it was all replaced and then it jelled up 3 times in carbs, tank, filters ?????? nothing else was in there except for ethonol but when we started using premium the proble went away...
any one can work out it was the fuel.
so if u brought a brand new motor, tank and filter etc where would the dirt come from for the ethonol to break it done????? cause thats basicly what we done....weather it reacted with plastic or what i dont know but i do know i seen it with my own eyes 3 TIMES....maybe where he was getting it from was using a high mixture i dont know but i know for a fact it aint right even the wifes fuel injected car taps away with the **** but use normal or premium its fine...im no fool ive been doing this long enough to know whats right or wrong and what works and dont...its low octane isnt good for modern cars un less its been set up for it...just like on a car motor if u up the timing u need to run a higher premium fuel for it to be affective or the firing is wrong...
do a read up on when fuel was first invented and how they had troubles getting the octane right for the right timing of the fuel explosion. diffrent octanes will fire at diffrent times in the piston so if a cars set up for high premium(98 octane) and u run normal fuel (85 or 91 octane) the perfomance and economy wont be there vise versa if ur cars set up for 85, 91 octane and u run 98 octane u wont get the right perfomance as the premium will ignite before the spark plug fires meaning waste fuel,loss performance unless u change ur timing to soot the 98 octane...
u might not notice with the every day car but its a fact.
so putting 85 octane in a 98 octane motor is wrong hence why it taps to...
the carbs ,fuel tank were full of jelly 3 times cleaned 3 times(tank was flushed put upside down and washed right out till it looked new) and only went away when change of fuel was made...

 

[raymondpickens]

Re: Ethanol and Re-Building Carbs Again???

I will have to back up the problems with the weedwhackers,blowers,lawnmowers,atv's,small pumps,etc, I have many. In the last year, I have had nothing but hell with all of them, I keep carb cleaner spray on hand now, (never had to do that btw).. I understand about the old stuff getting gummed, but I dont hardly have anything old anymore because most of the old stuff burned up or constantly need carb cleaning. Nothing I have starts like it should anymore, or runs that well to be honest. I have bought probably a dozen new blowers in the last year because(well i use them alot but the old ones used to last at least a year or so) I take them in for warranty to Craftsman, Echo, and Stihl, and they dont even bother fixing them anymore , they just send a new one..... So Its been about a year since they changed over the fuel here, and I have been using the hell out of portable power equipment for the better part of 15 years and In 14 of those didnt have half as many failures as within the last 1. Must be bad batches of gas all over san antonio