Ethanol

[phwrd]

As more Ethanol is being introduced into the gas here in Florida, I am running out of choises as to whether I want to run it in my Tacoma or not.

While it is suppose to be "cheaper", I am finding that it runs hotter and I get less milage with it. Therefore, getting less value for my dollars.

Has any one else noticed that or is it just me ?

Thanks,

Pat

 

[rolmops]

Re: Ethanol

Ethanol does have a higher octane than gasoline,but it needs a very finely tuned engine to take advantage of its potential.Most gas engines cannot do this.Usually you will only get about 66% of what a gallon of gasoline would give you.In other words,it has to be at least one third cheaper to get the same bang for your buck,because you will burn that much more fuel to get the same amount of energy a gallon of straight gas gives.

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: Ethanol

As more Ethanol is being introduced into the gas here in Florida, I am running out of choises as to whether I want to run it in my Tacoma or not.

While it is suppose to be "cheaper", I am finding that it runs hotter and I get less milage with it. Therefore, getting less value for my dollars.

Has any one else noticed that or is it just me ?

Thanks,

Pat

I think it's just you... ethanol burns considerably cooler, and gets better gas mileage, at least when burned properly. If you're complaining about the 10% ethanol that's been in the gas for for the last 50 years or so, get over it. If you're talking about higher grades like E85, lean out your engine. You should easily be able to get 5-10 mpg better mileage.

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: Ethanol

I think it's just you... ethanol burns considerably cooler, and gets better gas mileage, at least when burned properly. If you're complaining about the 10% ethanol that's been in the gas for for the last 50 years or so, get over it. If you're talking about higher grades like E85, lean out your engine. You should easily be able to get 5-10 mpg better mileage.

Wrong again Sgt. BTU content of various:

Gasoline - 125,000/gal.
Ethanol - 84,000/gal
90% Gasahol - 120,900

It takes BTU to move a vehicle. The less BTU content of a fuel, the more it takes to achieve comparable results. It does burn a bit cooler, but if you lean it out, you may not get out of the driveway.

If you intend to burn E85, you need to make several changes to your vehicle. Gas line needs to be changed to stainless, all aluminum intake parts need to be anodized aluminum, and gaskets/seals need to be changed.

 

[gonefishie]

Re: Ethanol

whatever you do, don't put it in your boat. Read up on the damages done on boats in Hawaii.

 

[i386]

Re: Ethanol

I haven't seen any around here for sale, but my truck is supposed to be able to run it. Inside the fuel door it says unleaded or E85. If it takes more of it though, I don't see the point.

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: Ethanol

If it takes more of it though, I don't see the point.

The point is becoming moot. Arguably, it was envisioned that the ethanol would displace oil, which we have to import. However, the production of ethanol is now making a significant dent in the food supply cost.

Also, it was anticipated that gasahol would be cheaper than gasoline, so even though it took more it would be a wash. That hasn't been the case.

 

[Major Woods]

Re: Ethanol

We have been running 10% e-gas here in CT for 2 years.

Never saw a price drop when they changed the formula over.

Less mpg's, loosens the crap in the fuel tanks then clogs up the filters. After several tank fulls the loose crap becomes less of an issue.

 

[waterinthefuel]

Re: Ethanol

Sorry SajMaj, but it's a well known fact that ethanol doesn't have nearly the output of plain old unleaded gas. It has a higher octane rating, but thats not what makes a car go. Therefore you will not get as good of gas mileage out of it.

Not sure where you're getting your ethanol facts from, but you may want to question their accuracy. I know we certainly do.

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Ethanol

Call the Toyota Customer Service phone line and ask. The newer ones are equipped with the proper gaskets and lines.

E-10 is common and the only fuel available here. I would ask about the E-85 I do not believe you can burn it..... if gas has 20% alcohol say goodbye to the CAT!!!

I called Toyota and the answer on E-85 is NO. They engines are not designed for it.

 

[phwrd]

Re: Ethanol

I just love a good debate.

But because I ain't too sharp, I want to make sure that I have this straight.

And please correct me if I am wrong.

We are all paying just as much for a product that costs me "less", requires me to use more and that damages my vehicle while i use it.

Who benefits more, the oil company or the automotive manufactures ?

Wait, it is just me that is trying to figure out how this is better for me and the economy, while the cost of a doctored gallon of gas jumps a dollar in 3 months ?

Sorry but, as i said, I ain't too smart. Someone please educate me.

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: Ethanol

Who benefits more, the oil company or the automotive manufactures ?

QUOTE]


Your forgot another busniness,,,,the farmers. Don't forget that the amount of fuel that goes into tilling, seeding, herbicides, insecticides, and harvesting of the corn. They are finally making a big profit at the consumers expense in many more ways than one. I'm acutally happy for them,,,,,now if the subsidies stop, I would be happier.

I know it is confusing, but the higher ups seem to be grasping for straws. This is an area (IMO) that they are not knowledgable due to their professional career. To me they have jumped the gun and made hasty decesions that is effecting everyone even world wide. I often wondered if all the money spent on this research, development, and distribution could have been used towards new wells and refineries. Heck, it may have even paid for the legal battle against the enviro's preventing it.

Sad thing is that the diesel is actually what runs this country. The ethanol will not benefit them at all. When diesel goes up, expect everything else to go up. Unlike gas, everthing in your home and job has gotten there by many diesel engines. This extra cost is passed onto us by higher prices while our pay does not. As the diesel soars even higher, the price of corn is going to go up again due to the extra cost generated in growing corn. I think this is going to be known as the Big American Boo Boo in the future.

Then I can't understand why we don't have cars getting more MPG than what there is. All I can see is cars with more horsepower with better MPG. How about less horsepower and way better mileage. In the 70's, compact cars with 4 cylinders mostly got over 30 mpg. I wonder what those same cars would get today with the new technology.

I gotta quit, this brings my blood pressure up and not a dang thing I can do about it except pay up...........SS

 

[rolmops]

Re: Ethanol

I just love a good debate.

But because I ain't too sharp, I want to make sure that I have this straight.

And please correct me if I am wrong.

We are all paying just as much for a product that costs me "less", requires me to use more and that damages my vehicle while i use it.

Who benefits more, the oil company or the automotive manufactures ?

Wait, it is just me that is trying to figure out how this is better for me and the economy, while the cost of a doctored gallon of gas jumps a dollar in 3 months ?

Sorry but, as i said, I ain't too smart. Someone please educate me.

In this case it is not the oil companies.
The car companies do benefit a bit because they do not have to come up with an alternative to our current engines.
The ones who really benefit are the farmers who, through their lobbying power,have pushed ethanol and made it what it is today.
Ethanol is another sad example of one interest group taking advantage of a market opportunity and making everyone else pay for something that is not a solution but part of the problem.

 

[Kenneth Brown]

Re: Ethanol

Many of the farmers ain't to happy with it either, at least not the ones that have livestock also. I buy my feed packaged/blended/whatever you wanna call it. My prices have went up a third. Thankfully we have had a weather system cooperating the last 2 years and we have range to turn the animals on. My goats still have to get grain daily and everything gets grain and hay in the winter. I sometimes wonder if I am spending more on feeding them than I do my family.......

 

[JB]

Re: Ethanol

Ethanol is a very satisfactory fuel for engines designed to use it. It burns cleaner and cooler, makes American farmers instead of foreigners rich, and uses smaller, more efficient engines if they are designed to use it.

More specifically, because of its higher octane engines can have higher compression ratios and smaller displacements for the same power output. Because it burns cleaner and cooler the engines can have smaller, lighter cooling systems and lighter, less complex exhaust systems.

As an octane booster for gasoline ethanol degrades the performance of engines designed for gas because of its lower energy content per volume, but it does reduce the amount of imported energy and replaces more dangerous additives.

I do not think ethanol is "the" answer because it competes with food crops, causing a spreading inflation of food prices for people and livestock.

I think natural gas, which is mostly not imported, is a far better solution. Most gasoline engines can be easily converted to burn LNG or propane (and ethanol engines even easier) with all of the advantages of ethanol. More power from smaller, lighter, cleaner engines.

The untapped technology for lowering energy (imported and domestic) use by vehicles is weight. Between safety features and power convenience features there are about 1,000# added to a modern car. That is typically 25% of total weight and uses up about 25% of the fuel.

 

[arboldt]

Re: Ethanol

On a Honda forum, I've read that due to lower energy content per gallon, gasohol (10% ethanol) gives anywhere from a 6% to 20% less miles per gallon.

At the moment, ethanol is actually more expensive to produce than gasoline, but the advantages of cleaner air and a reduced dependence on foreign oil -- plus increased income for some farmers -- makes it politically expedient.

I've also read that it is more corrosive to engines and fuel systems, so long-term maintenance costs will be higher.

The biggest hope, from what I've read, is biodiesel. It would actually be more efficiently processed from crops, and, as a diesel, be more efficient in miles per gallon. It would require minimal modifications to existing diesel engines. It would require the greatest expense to the general population and industry to convert from gasoline to diesel engines.

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: Ethanol

Wrong again Sgt. BTU content of various:

Gasoline - 125,000/gal.
Ethanol - 84,000/gal
90% Gasahol - 120,900

It takes BTU to move a vehicle. The less BTU content of a fuel, the more it takes to achieve comparable results. It does burn a bit cooler, but if you lean it out, you may not get out of the driveway.

If you intend to burn E85, you need to make several changes to your vehicle. Gas line needs to be changed to stainless, all aluminum intake parts need to be anodized aluminum, and gaskets/seals need to be changed.

Actually BTU's are an expression of the heat produced rather than the gaseous expansion rate. What you want is the pressure produced, and yes, if burned in identical conditions, gas does provide more HP. However, in a gas engine set up to run gas, your engine actually puts much more fuel into the cylinder than what it can burn. This is in part to carry some of the heat out of the motor (a problem you don't have with a cooler burning fuel), and also because if the perfect mix were achieved, you'd blow out the engine because the cylinders can't handle that much compression. Enter E85... higher octane and lower BTU's mean it burns slower and cooler than gas. Because it burns slower, you can lean it out to get the same compression (which is where your HP comes from) without having to worry about leaning it out so much that you blow a cylinder. Because it burns cooler, you don't need extra fuel flowing through to flush out some of the heat as well. Bottom line, a leaned out engine running e85 will beat a stock engine running gas any day as far a mileage is concerned.

As far as someone else said about having to change out a bunch of engine components, that's simply not true. I've been running it in both my vehicles (neither of which was designed for e85) for the past couple of years without having to change out any hoses or anything like that. Although up 'til now I've been mixing it at a ratio of about 1/3 to 2/3rds.

As someone else mentioned, it does clean out the fuel system, so if you've been running gas for a long time, you'll want to introduce it slowly over the course of several tanks so that the sludge can get cleaned out without totally clogging the fuel filter all at once. But, even if you do clog the filter, they are what, $5? You'll save that at the pump with the first tank.

Also, I keep hearing the corn thing brought up, how corn is more expensive now because of ethanol, if that's true, why is rice nearly 5 times more expensive? Why are eggs more than twice as expensive? Why is fruit so expensive now too? The fact is, with the dollar devalued, and fuel so expensive, all food is going to cost more. So corn is almost 2 and a half times more expensive than it was 5 years ago... that's right in line with other food prices.

If you ask me though, I think phwrd must work for an oil company, and was assigned to spreading misinformation to further boost that 40 bn yearly exxon profit, note, that's profit, not revenue. That's what they are pocketing after all the bills are paid and all the paychecks written, and that's just one company. Seems to me they have a real interest in keeping us from switching fuels.

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: Ethanol

Also, I keep hearing the corn thing brought up, how corn is more expensive now because of ethanol, if that's true, why is rice nearly 5 times more expensive? Why are eggs more than twice as expensive? Why is fruit so expensive now too? The fact is, with the dollar devalued, and fuel so expensive, all food is going to cost more. So corn is almost 2 and a half times more expensive than it was 5 years ago... that's right in line with other food prices.

QUOTE]

As for rice, their weather conditons is responsible for the reduced availability which is supply in demand. Farm products need fuel to grow, maintain, and deliver. So now it costs the farmer twice as much in fuel (as the truckers) and you wonder why the costs are going up. Therefore the farmer raises his rates. Now add the fuel surcharge from the truckers to that,,,,,yes, the price is going to inflate big time.

When truckers could fill their rigs for $500 just a year or two ago, prices remained steady. Now that it costs over $1,000 to fill a big rig, that extra cost gets passed on to the consumer. Look at the number of trucks on the road and one can easily see why everything thing is going up and the dollar going down.

When say a factory has a shipment that would fill 100 big rigs. They increased the price 10% on the shipment. Once the shipment is made, those same trucks that hauled the product 2 years ago spent $50K on fuel. Today the fuel cost for those same trucks is $100K. IMO that 10% the company put on for more profit will not equal the extra cost added due to the increase in fuel sur-charges that the consumer ends up spending.

IMO the inflation that is happening that is lowering our dollar is completely 100% related to the drastic increase of diesel. The large profit by the oil companines proves this.

 

[gonefishie]

Re: Ethanol

As far as someone else said about having to change out a bunch of engine components, that's simply not true. I've been running it in both my vehicles (neither of which was designed for e85) for the past couple of years without having to change out any hoses or anything like that. Although up 'til now I've been mixing it at a ratio of about 1/3 to 2/3rds.

As someone else mentioned, it does clean out the fuel system, so if you've been running gas for a long time, you'll want to introduce it slowly over the course of several tanks so that the sludge can get cleaned out without totally clogging the fuel filter all at once. But, even if you do clog the filter, they are what, $5? You'll save that at the pump with the first tank.

Also, I keep hearing the corn thing brought up, how corn is more expensive now because of ethanol, if that's true, why is rice nearly 5 times more expensive? Why are eggs more than twice as expensive? Why is fruit so expensive now too? The fact is, with the dollar devalued, and fuel so expensive, all food is going to cost more. So corn is almost 2 and a half times more expensive than it was 5 years ago... that's right in line with other food prices.

1/3 to 2/3 huh? I dare you to run them on 100% ethanol. Although, fuel filter is cheap but it ain't easy to replace on all vehicles. On some it's in the fuel tank, not a job I want to mess with. Corn is more expensive, along with all other commodities, is because it takes fuel to produce and deliver them. You have to burn diesel fuel to grow, harvest the corn and deliver that stupid ethanol to the pump. Egg cost more because it cost more to feed the chicken. The feed have to be grow and harvested and delivered. Fertilizer cost more because it also uses fuel to make. The cost of fertilizer is so high that now lot of farmers are using more manure to fertilizer the fields. Last weekend, I drove through the country and I couldn't get outta there fast enough because it stunk extremely bad.

 

[mscher]

Re: Ethanol

Heard today that some "Think Tank" folks, estimated that in producing ethanol, with the price of corn, distilling costs, the increases in food costs that ethanol is creating, plus the $.51 cents/gallon subsidy, that taxpayers are coughing up, the real cost of ethanol is about $1 gallon more than petroleum fuel.

Sound's like a real bargain.