evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

[fishdog4449]

Hey guys,
Evinrude 140 bubbleback crossflow here, 1984 year. I went to start the motor for the 1st time this season. She fired up after several cranking and priming sets. Ran for a few minutes then pulled the plugs to inspect, the stbd (looking fwd) bank of cylinders has clean plugs - I mean CLEAN, no whitegrey water/oil mix, nothing. The port side plugs look like what I consider normal for a 2 stroke, perhaps even a little too dirty.
A little history - I bought this boat a year ago. Haven't had time between school and sea (Marine engineer in training) to do much work on her. I had her out once last year and the 140 wouldn't get past 2k rpm or so. It revs up fine with no load. I tried 3 different props, adjusted the motor height, and checked the boat for soggy foam/water, all of that checked out. So I rebuilt the carbs, new primer bulb and fuel pump, adjusted Spark advance and carb link n sync. Compression is 120 120 125 115. I did notice that the p/o had removed the thermostats (which I put back in along w/the relief springs). Then I had to go back to school so I winterized the boat.

So my question is, where should I go from here? How would only one side of the motor be getting fuel? Also, what is the function of the small vacuum lines running from the transfer covers to various spots on the intake/crankcase?

For the OMC gurus, I've attached a picture of the plugs one from each side (each bank looks identical) and a video of the motor running. Picture was taken immediately after removal from the motor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBdZjdLv_6E

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

If the plugs have a washed appearance, that is very possible that they are washed-with coolant water. You can get water into the exhaust chest on that engine from the exhaust system. Wsater can leak into that exhaust cavity when running (the pressure of the water pump.) Any water leaks tend to affect the lower cyls first. A number of possibilities. The exhaust filler blocks can sometimes corrode/erode, causting an improper clampload of the manifolds to the block. The gaskets can leak with years of use-the original exhaust bolts can loosen slightly with age. You can have a casting leak (poriosity) in the inner exhaust manifold. (exp if this engine is run in saltwater.) Probably the good news is that the inner/outer exhaust manifolds on this engine are fairly easy to access and work on. The small vacuum lines are part of the factory recirculation system. It is designed to recirculate excess fuel from behind the reeds into the combustion process-the whole system is to improve idling.

 

[fishdog4449]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

emdsapmgr - I removed the bubble exhaust cover and manifold (see attached). It looks like a fair amount of water is entering. Also, a bolt is missing (see yellow circle) that attaches the inner manifold to the block. I'm not sure if that would affect the sealing of the manifold to the block. The gaskets looked decent, of course I ruined them taking it out and have ordered new ones. Now I just have to find out where the water is getting in. I haven't inspected the manifold yet, just took these pictures.

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

Looks like a water issue on the port half of the exhaust. Actually, everything looks very normal. That's good for an engine of that age. A couple of things to check for: 1. The fact that the inner bolt is missing will affect the clamp load on the internal gaskets. Replacing it should help. 2. Get a really straight edge and place it across the face of the exhaust. Check to make sure the exhaust filler blocks are exactly even with the straight edge as it rests on (spans across) each side of the block. Measure this a number of different ways, side to side, top to bottom. If an engine severely overheats the block could distort somewhat. If that back surface is not perfectly flat, it can leak water. (if need be-you can have it milled a few thousandths to clean it up-then put the manifolds back on. 3. The exhaust filler blocks that are bolted into the exhaust chest look good. (not eaten up by salt.) 4. It's always possible that the inner manifold has a pinhole leak. There are various ways to check for leaks in that manifold, including laying it flatside up and filling it with water. Then check for leaks overnight. 5. When you get everything put back together, it's always good to retorque the manifold after it goes through 2 or 3 heat/cool cycles. You can tell it's a 140 hp block-it has the lower rib machined out at the bottom of the cavity. You can see where the current gasket is fractured in the middle bottom since it makes no contact with two surfaces. That small part of the gasket serves no purpose on the 140's and I'd cut that small center pc out to match the existing opening-making sure the gasket is fully around any bolt holes and water passages. The original factory service manual recommends using typical gasket sealer on the exhaust gaskets.

 

[fishdog4449]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

Great information! Thank you so much. New gaskets should be in in two days that will give me time to check and recheck everything like you said!!

 

[fishdog4449]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

A little confused EMD -
The edges of the exhaust filler blocks - should they be flush with the edges of the manifold where the inner cover bolts on? There seems to be a varying 0- 1/16" gap any which way I measure it. The surface that the inner cover bolts on is straight all the way around, but is not completely flush with the exhaust filler blocks. The filler blocks do not extend enough to be completely flush with the exh. inner manifold mounting surface. Is there supposed to be a metal gasket or something between those filler blocks and the exh. cover or has the block somehow distorted this way?
Edit2: ^I read that this is normal and that the filler blocks shouldn't extend past the gasket surface. So thus far the only thing wrong I have found is that missing bolt for the inner exh manifold.

Edit: I went ahead and removed the exh filler blocks to clean them. I started to clean behind the blocks but then remembered to take pics. So the pic is of the block after I had cleaned the port side. Both sides looked similar before cleaning.

PS - Thanks for all the help!

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

Normally, the exhaust filler blocks are not a serviceable item. If they are disturbed (moved by taking of/on) they may not go back into the exact same position. Possible that they may not be absolutely flat with the edges of the powerhead exhaust edges. However, your description indicates that they are already not flat. They should be. The fact that they are not is a reason for the water in the cavity. Could always be due to an overheat, improper torque, etc. I'd bolt the filler blocks back in with the locking devices, then take it to your local machine shop. Have them take a pass on the mill to make the exhaust block surface all completely flat.

 

[fishdog4449]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

Sounds good EMD. What I don't understand is I've read posts about people removing the filler blocks for a variety of reasons. I don't understand how if the filler blocks are removed, water will not get into the cylinders then? That would be no different that mine not being flush to the manifold correct?

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

Your powerhead was assembled with the incorrect inner exhaust manifold gasket. Your 140 powerhead was assembled with a pair of flatback 85/115 hp outer gaskets (319174.) Purchase the correct inner gasket and you'll be able to see the required factory interference fits better. The correct inner gasket you need is 323469. You will still need 1 pc of 319174 for between the two manifolds. Check out the factory exploded parts diagram for your powerhead on the factory website: epc.brp.com.

 

[fishdog4449]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

Well that would do it! I thought the gasket looked out of place when I took it off. Will putting the correct gasket in remedy this situation or shall I still have the back surfaces re-surfaced? On my spare powerhead it looks like the filler blocks are in the same place and do not extend to be flush with the manifold surface.

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

The V4 and V6 bubble backs I've worked on have always been really flat. I'm sure they were originally flush. The block was "decked" at the factory to be sure it was all flush. That way it serves two purposes, it eliminates the possibility of a water leak along that inside cooling rib. Also, it makes sure the exhaust is directed into the inner exhaust manifold, then out the midsection adapter. If there is clearance between the outer face of the filler blocks and the manifold, the proper gasket may not take up any clearance difference. Possible some exhaust may bleed around the edges of the filler blocks and could (over time) affect the rest of that gasket-even that part along the middle cooling rib-possibly reducing it's normal life span. It's possible you may not even own that engine when that happens....

 

[fishdog4449]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

I had a shop deck the rear of the motor to be flush. Installed the CORRECT gasket and torqued to spec. going to run the motor today and re-torque. I also noticed that the powerhead looks to be missing two studs on the aft end of the block. I noticed exhaust exiting from where the studs are supposed to be, so I replaced those as well while I had the powerhead off.
Edit: It seems to run much smoother on the hose, although that doesn't mean much. Going to head to the lake tomorrow or Tuesday.

 

[fishdog4449]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

Thanks for all your help EMD.
Now for part II of this saga...
The motor ran great @ the Lake, however would not rev over 2k rpm in gear. Did some on-the-go troubleshooting, pulling both plug wires off the starboard bank did not change rpm a bit. When I got home, I tested for spark and found none on that side. The coils tested fine, powerpack did not. Replaced the powerpack with a spare and got nice blue snappy spark.

Started it up on the hose, and although the motor started much quicker, it ran horribly. I shut it off after 10 seconds or so. It was sneezing from the exhaust and seemed to be missing. I checked to ensure the plug wires and coil wires went to the right cylinder (orange/blue on top) and checked the fuel lines for air leaks in case it was somehow leaning it out. I think lean carb problem but I rebuilt them just a week ago. Not sure if this is the problem or even related, but I can squeeze the crap outta the primer bulb and it doesn't leak fuel anywhere in the system, but within about 30 seconds (engine running or not) the bulb is fairly soft again. Any ideas?

I've also been told to get the L77JC4 plugs for this motor instead of the surface gap plugs in there now?

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

You are thinking the right direction on the power pack wiring. Blue/orange goes on top. It does seem more than coincidental that the ignition problems started when you changed the pack... I changed a pack once, got the wires correct, then had horrible issues with it running when restarted. Finally found the prior owner had the #4 coil firing #6 plug, and vice versa. Changed the coil to spark plug wiring and it was fine. The factory still recommends that tipless plug for those old 140's. Same as the V6 engines of that era-but different from all the rest of the V4 line.

 

[fishdog4449]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

I'll try swapping the leads! I have yet another spare powerpack I can try also. I did notice that my spare power packs had slightly different numbers on them. One was 582125 and the other was 581805. They looked identical and both packs read CD4 on the front. Is there a difference?
I tried swapping plugs also to no avail.
The fact that the motor is running on the hose with no back pressure wouldn't affect idling mixture would it (leaner)? When I rev the motor up the coughing goes away mostly except for a miss every few seconds.

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

When that engine idles, the butterflys are closed. Air goes through the hole in the butterflys and fuel is delivered through special, small dedicated passages in the carb. When these passages get restricted with years of dried fuel, you can get a lean sneeze at idle. If crack the throttle just a little bit, the butterflys open and the carb starts to draw fuel from other (larger) jets. Usually the lean sneeze goes away, (when you open the butterflys even just a little.)

 

[fishdog4449]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

Hmm. Well I'mma buy a gal' of carb cleaner today and clean the carbs out again an blow thru all the passages. In another direction, is it possible that the sensor/timer base components not performing right only on the sbd side? It doesn't seem likely since it runs better when ya rev it up, just throwin it out there.

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

I use the gumout spray can. Take one carb and spray one passage, paying attention to the spray pattern coming out the other hole end of that carb. Then pick up the other carb and spray the same passage, paying attention to it's exiting spray pattern. You want them to both spray the same... Then go on to the next passage in the first carb-repeat the process. If they don't spray the same, one is restricted. Be sure to pull the jets to visually inspect them.

 

[fishdog4449]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

Well EMD, I cleaned the carbs very nicely this afternoon. No change in the motors behavior. Tried a different powerpack - no change. Remembered what you said about the power packs having incorrect wiring, and reversed the two plug wires just for the heck of it.
Wouldn't ya believe it started like it was fuel injected and idled down nice and smooth :O
Now...is the powerpack incorrectly wired, or intended for the other side of the motor or should I just not question the gremlins and go with it? I thought the wiring was blue/orange on top for both sides. Either way, it seems to be running excellent now.

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: evinrude 140 - no fuel or water intrusion..or something??

Personally, I wouldn't argue with success. If the engine likes it, leave it alone. It's always possible one of the pins in one of the ignition wiring harness rubber connectors is in the wrong hole, causing your problems. Those rubber connector plugs are marked a,b,c, etc and have to have specific colored wire pins in the correct holes.