Excessive Blow-by

Speakrdude

Ensign
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Messages
942
I have an unusual problem. My engine, a 96 Merc. 3.0L rebuilt completely by a very reputible machine shop, last fall, has developed an excessive blow-by problem. After using the boat July the 4th all day, at the end of the day, had oil all over the engine and bilge. So as an experiment, I attached a 4'x5/8" hose to a gallon container in the bilge and took the boat out Monday the 5th. After approx. 45 min's of WOT (4600 RPM) pretty goood work-out, I checked the container and had about a third of a quart of oil in it. I took boat home Tuesday and while on the trailer with muff's, I ran the engine for a while to warm up and placed a paper towel over the end of the tube. Ran the engine up to 3500 prm's and ran for a bit. NOTHING. PCV tube performed as it should. As a suggestion from the machine shop, I pulled the dipstick (at 3500 RPM's)to check for lower pressure. NOTHING. The oil pressure is holding steady at 40lbs.(ish) The dipstick reads almost a quart low now. I changed the oil myself this spring and only put in 4 quarts as the specs call for. The only thing I can think of is that when the boat is under way, all the oil is being pushed to the rear of the engine, causing the pistons and such to get flooded. It seems odd that the manufactuor would put the deepest part of the oil pan at the front of the engine instead of vice-versa.<br /><br />Oh Yeah, The engine runs real good, no smoke. <br />I read excessive timing advance could cause this. <br /> <br />Any Suggestions?<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />Jim
 

Boomyal

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Aug 16, 2003
Messages
12,072
Re: Excessive Blow-by

Originally posted by Speakrdude:<br /> So as an experiment, I attached a 4'x5/8" hose to a gallon container in the bilge and took the boat out Monday the 5th. After approx. 45 min's of WOT (4600 RPM) pretty goood work-out, I checked the container and had about a third of a quart of oil in it.
Am I missing something? What did you attach the other end of the hose to?
 

Speakrdude

Ensign
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Messages
942
Re: Excessive Blow-by

Opps... Sorry, I attached the hose to the PCV vent nipple located on the Rocker arm cover. I also mistakenly said the engine was a 96. It was not, It was a 95 and the machine shop swapped the block with another of the same model due to a crack. I am not sure what year the replacment block actually is. <br /><br />Jim
 

Fishermark

Vice Admiral
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Messages
5,617
Re: Excessive Blow-by

I would do a compression check on each of the cylinders. Excessive blow by is usually an indication of worn rings. I know you said it was rebuilt - but it is possible that they did something wrong, or perhaps the rings didn't "take a seat" yet, or something else unusual. A compression and leak down test will tell you a lot.
 

IcantDo55

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
112
Re: Excessive Blow-by

I saw a NEW rebuilt motor once where some one left a ring out??? Ran but had the same problem you discribed. Hope its not your problem.
 

Dunaruna

Admiral
Joined
May 2, 2003
Messages
6,027
Re: Excessive Blow-by

speakrdude, <br /><br />On muffs the engine is under very slight load, at WOT on the water its loaded up big time. Thats probably why you get little or no blowby on the muffs.<br /><br />Me thinks worn, broken or missing :( rings.<br /><br />Aldo
 

f_inscreenname

Commander
Joined
Aug 23, 2001
Messages
2,591
Re: Excessive Blow-by

The first motor I ever rebuilt the pistons in the motor were 30 over and I used standard size rings. Talk about blow by.
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
71,308
Re: Excessive Blow-by

How many Total Hours on this motor since the Rebuild ??????<br />
took the boat out Monday the 5th. After approx. 45 min's of WOT (4600 RPM) <br /> while on the trailer with muff's, Ran the engine up to 3500 prm's and ran for a bit.
With this kind of Abuse,<br />I see a Very Short Engine Life.............
 

sculbert

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
May 22, 2004
Messages
160
Re: Excessive Blow-by

I tend to agree with fishermark, I beleive a compression test in is order here first before you make a diagnosis. Look for one cylinder with more than 10% veriance form the rest of the cylinders
 

crazy charlie

Vice Admiral
Joined
May 22, 2003
Messages
5,604
Re: Excessive Blow-by

Im sure you dont do this as a practice but you really dont want to be at 3500 rpms while on muffs.Charlie
 

Blk-n-Blu

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
May 12, 2004
Messages
821
Re: Excessive Blow-by

Speakerdude have a read at this, you may have doomed that engine:<br />Breaking in a New or Rebuilt Engine<br /><br />Whenever an engine's piston rings are replaced whether in part or in entirety it is necessary to break in the engine. Piston rings are replaced at a complete engine overhaul or repair, top overhaul or single cylinder overhaul or repair.<br /><br />When we refer to engine or cylinder break in, we are talking about the physical mating of the engine's piston rings to it's corresponding cylinder wall. That is, we want to physically wear the new piston rings into the cylinder wall until a compatible seal between the two is achieved.<br /><br />Proper engine break in will produce an engine that achieves maximum power output with the least amount of oil consumption due to the fact that the piston rings have seated properly to the cylinder wall. When the piston rings are broken in or seated, they do not allow combustion gases to escape the combustion chamber past the piston rings into the crankcase section of the engine. This lack of "blow-by" keeps your engine running cleaner and cooler by preventing hot combustion gases and by-products from entering the crankcase section of the engine. Excessive "blow-by" will cause the crankcase section of the engine to become pressurized and contaminated with combustion gases, which in turn will force normal oil vapors out of the engine's breather, causing the engine to consume excessive amounts of oil. In addition to sealing combustion gases in the combustion chamber, piston rings must also manage the amount of oil present on the cylinder walls for lubrication. If the rings do not seat properly, they cannot perform this function and will allow excessive amounts of oil to accumulate on the cylinder wall surfaces. This oil is burned each and every time the cylinder fires. The burning of this oil, coupled with "blow-by" induced engine breathing, are reasons that an engine that hasn't been broken in will consume more than its share of oil.<br /><br />When a cylinder is overhauled or repaired the surface of it's walls are honed with abrasive stones to produce a rough surface that will help wear the piston rings in. This roughing up of the surface is known as "cross-hatching". A cylinder wall that has been properly "cross hatched" has a series of minute peaks and valleys cut into its surface. The face or portion of the piston ring that interfaces with the cross hatched cylinder wall is tapered to allow only a small portion of the ring to contact the honed cylinder wall. When the engine is operated, the tapered portion of the face of the piston ring rubs against the coarse surface of the cylinder wall causing wear on both objects. At the point where the top of the peaks produced by the honing operation become smooth and the tapered portion of the piston ring wears flat break in has occurred.<br /><br />When the engine is operating, a force known as Break Mean Effective Pressure or B.M.E.P is generated within the combustion chamber. B.M.E.P. is the resultant force produced from the controlled burning of the fuel air mixture that the engine runs on. The higher the power setting the engine is running at, the higher the B.M.E.P. is and conversely as the power setting is lowered the B.M.E.P. becomes less.<br /><br />B.M.E.P is an important part of the break in process. When the engine is running, B.M.E.P. is present in the cylinder behind the piston rings and it's force pushes the piston ring outward against the coarse honed cylinder wall. The higher the B.M.E.P, the harder the piston ring is pushed against the wall. The surface temperature at the piston ring face and cylinder wall interface will be greater with high B.M.E.P. than with low B.M.E.P. This is because we are pushing the ring harder against the rough cylinder wall surface causing high amounts of friction and thus heat. The primary deterrent of break in is this heat. Allowing to much heat to build up at the ring to cylinder wall interface will cause the lubricating oil that is present to break down and glaze the cylinder wall surface. This glaze will prevent any further seating of the piston rings. If glazing is allowed to happen break in will never occur. We must achieve a happy medium where we are pushing on the ring hard enough to wear it in but not hard enough to generate enough heat to cause glazing. If glazing should occur, the only remedy is to remove the effected cylinder, re-hone it and replace the piston rings and start the whole process over again.<br /><br />Understanding what happens in the engine during break in allows us to comprehend the ideas behind how we should operate the engine after piston rings have been changed.<br /><br />The break in process may take as long as 20 hours of operation to complete. You are in control of engine break in for 98 % of the time that it takes to occur. This is a serious responsibility when you consider the expense and aggravation of having to remove, re-hone and re-ring cylinders that have glazed and not broken in.<br /><br />Use regular oil, not synthetic, during break-in.<br /><br />When you first start it up, let it COMPLETELY warm up, not just kinda warm, all the way warm. Liquid cooled engines require that the engine be brought gradually to normal operating temperature to avoid cold seizure resulting from pistons expanding faster than the cylinder liner.<br /><br />Allow 1 hour at idle speed only for break-in of new pistons or rings.<br /><br />While it's still hot, check and see if the head needs to be retorqued.<br /><br />Check the timing again, as well as the valve adjustment.<br /><br />DO NOT RUN ENGINE AT CONSTANT RPM FOR PROLONGED PERIODS OF TIME.<br /><br />After gradually bringing engine to normal operating temp., operate engine in gear at approx. 1500 RPM for 20 minutes.<br /><br />Operate in gear at no more than 2000 RPM for the next 60 minutes.<br /><br />Cruise at 3/4 throttle or less for the next 4 hours.<br /><br />Occasionally reduce throttle to idle speed for a cooling period.<br /><br />Use only enough throttle to plane your vessel and then throttle back to ~3000 RPM.<br /><br />Avoid operating in the 2000-3000 RPM range at all times during the 10 hour break-in period.<br /><br />• During the 6th hour of break-in, plane boat quickly and then throttle back to maintain minimum plane speed.<br /><br />• During this 6th hour, you can throttle up to 3/4 throttle for 1-2 minutes, then return to minimum planing speed.<br /><br />During the final hours of break-in you can operate at full throttle for periods of 2 minutes or less.<br /><br />Avoid continuous full throttle operation for the first 10 hours of operation.<br /><br />Change the oil after 10 hours. Still just the regular oil.<br /><br />Change the oil again after 20 hours. Still just the regular oil.<br /><br />Change the oil again (50 hours). Now you can use the expensive synthetics if you want to.<br /><br />After that, the motor is pretty much broken in, so go run the dang thing to see how fast it is!!!!<br /> <br />George
 

Speakrdude

Ensign
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Messages
942
Re: Excessive Blow-by

George, I did the majority of everything above. I relize how important the breakend period is. I rebuild Jetski's (2 stroke engines) on a weekly basis as a side line hobby. I have 7 in my yard now. Its an addictive hobby. Anyway... My point is, that I followed the break-in period very carefully as I noramlly do, But this problem is not very consistant and as mentioned above, The engine would probably smoke or have constant blow-by which it does not. <br />I am taking to the water this afternoon to perform a load test-and a compression. <br /><br /> Jim
 

Blk-n-Blu

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
May 12, 2004
Messages
821
Re: Excessive Blow-by

speakerdude,George is the author of the article,I just passed it on.Sorry for the confusion
 

Speakrdude

Ensign
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Messages
942
Re: Excessive Blow-by

Absolutley no confusion..... I really appreciate any input on this subject....<br /><br />Jim
 

Jilly - 5

Seaman
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Messages
74
Re: Excessive Blow-by

My 302 Ford engine, after re-build break-in, experienced blow-by at 3500+ rpm. Engine sounded very loaded up and straining. Discovered prop was 15x19. Pitched down to 15x17, rpms increased and blow-by ceased. Incidently, "blow-by" was evidenced by smoke & oil out breather cap. So I surmised over-loaded engine was blowing oil past valve stem guides, not piston rings.
 

Speakrdude

Ensign
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Messages
942
Re: Excessive Blow-by

Never have considered the prop...but..<br />Took the boat out Saturday morning for a spin. Did a compression test: 165~175 across all 4, Well within the prescribed 10%. Timing was at 5 degree BTC at 800rpm with the shift inter. jumped and the 2 white wires on the dist. jumped. We watched the vent tube and confirmed that it would only blow out liquid if ran over 3000 RPM's under way, Not in nuetral. A little while back, when I first noticed a little problem, I spoke with the shope that it and they gave me a pice of metal to rivet to the 2 "divider walls" that are located inside the valve cover just below the vent tube. That thought that it would keep oil from splashing up and out the tube but now I believe that it is actually collecting oil and contributing to the quanity of oil being blow out under load. I will probally remove. I Will continue to "break-in" for a while after that. Hopefully will cure itself.
 

jfb

Cadet
Joined
Jun 5, 2004
Messages
13
Re: Excessive Blow-by

Speakerdude,<br />why do you jumper out the shift inter. switch and the coil when timing?<br /><br />Blk-n-Blu,<br />amazing discription
 

DHPMARINE

Captain
Joined
Dec 16, 2003
Messages
3,688
Re: Excessive Blow-by

spearkdude I have a hunch that when you changed the oil,you didn't get it all out and overfilled the crankcase.Are you still using oil?<br />DHP
 
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