external oil / everybodies favorite topic

[hharbor]

Yes, fun. another oil fill question....
I have a yamaha 200, I do not have a tilt sensor. my reserve tank suddenly does not refill. This is second time since new in 2004. first repair I switched level sensors in reserve and problem went away. This time when first failed emergency fill did not pump oil. had to hand fill in rough waters 4 times to get in. spent several hours with meter checking voltages. weird thing. removed vent line from reserve and emergency tank filled. ran boat in cradle for 30 min at 3000 rpm. NP. Let her down and ran the bayou. pump seems to keep up until running wot. At this rpm I tilt engine to trim for speed and handling. still within tilt range (not in raise mode). Clogged filter? or is there an interlock for the tilt angle? I do not have a set of schematics to look at. I am a instrument controls designer. I look at the logic and the level guage is doing its bit. high high causes pump to stop, low low drops rpm and causes alarm. Rpms over 4000 oil just can't keep up. (this is not documented well. any thoughts, do you have a schematic. this is a 2004. had a workmate suggest running "seafoam" through tank to clean out pump...
what more do you know about the tilt lock out, if that is malfunctioning then i am chasing my tail everywhere else.


read a post mentioning tilt sensor locking out fill. played whole game and understand system as best as possible without wiring schematic. Pump runs. Emergency pump DID not work until vent tube was removed. Handled every wire in motor, plus boat is CC we take offshore, so she takes a beating. suddenly emergency pump works. level sensor in tank inhibits overfill, signals low low level with alarm and 2000 rpm drop. Oil appears to keep up until we run wide open. this involves TILTING the motor to lift hull. Ran the boat on cradle in water then for an hour or so on water, starts stops turns multiple rpm ranges.
ahhhhh.........
does anybody have a schematic!
2004 200hp Offshore. could be filter in line to tank, but intermittent failure drives me nuts. Tank installed in impossible place. Would prefer to test everything else BEFORE i pull that tank.

there is an interlock somewhere that is causing the main tank pump to cut off.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: external oil / everybodies favorite topic

anganeers and dezineers.
both can make a simple circuit complex .
on the engine tank,SW1 float up completes the grond path for the ECU to halt transfer,SW2,float about mid point closes and cmpletes the ground path for the ecu to command pump on,SW3 float at bottom closes the ground path and the ECU sets RPM reduction,alarm audible,alarm visual and another transfer pump on command.
once on the transfer pump will run until sw1 closes again commanding pump off.
on the remote, the 4 wire connector,brown is 12V positive anytime the key is on,blue is the ground path for the transfer pump, ground is normally controled by the ECU pump on or off commands, the emergency switch simply bypasses the ecu and grounds directly when toggled.
V6 motors,2.6 l from 190 to 1995 used the trim sensor for trim angle,once about 20 degrees is hit it inhibits transfer.
on the remote tank black and black\red black is circuit ground for SWB SWB is normally closed, when tank level drops SWB opens and the yellow lamp is lit and automatic transfer is prohibited.
the remote now has enough oil for two manual transfers.
all other 1996 and up V6 engines use a pulser coil signal to allow transfer just like all the V76 motors,3.1.
vents have no affect on transfer pump running or not.
if the engine tank vent is clogged the transfer pump will pop the switch assy out due to pressure.
by removing the engine tank screen assy you may have damaged the engine oil pump.
any debris in the tank bottom falls down the pump intake pipe when the screen is removed.
also the screen to tank seal must be retieved and replaced.
this is a 12V system not a 5V logic circuit,no high or low.
with the remote tank full and the engine tank empty the transfer pump will run for 180 seconds at key on engine off power.
it should refill the engine tank and shut off before it times out,if not check the remote oil tank filter.
a clogged filter can allow the engine oil to be consumed faster than it can transfer at high speeds and you get an alarm.
post the model number so we can ID the exact precision blend you have.

 

[hharbor]

Re: external oil / everybodies favorite topic

THANKS GREAT INFO>
Good/bad news is that all the wiring and switch positions matched what I tested on Saturday.

Had great witty response, but my login timed out and lost it.

model 2004 SX200TXRC.
Dont see filter you are worried about. stainer (5) was left in during emergency fill. Normal operation of boat. 85 gallon tank. Refill once a week or more. look at oil tank that is now not too clear. If low level drops rpms and nasty horn then grab gallon from bilge and pour into deck fill. This time no go. pulled cowling, low tank, EMERGENCY switch did not work... so funnel and gallon bottle, 50 miles home....

this is best test proceedure....
with the remote tank full and the engine tank empty the transfer pump will
run for 180 seconds at key on engine off power.
it should refill the engine tank and shut off before it times out,if not check the remote oil tank filter.
to mid level or top mark? low and high slashes on engine tank.

BTW.. where does overfill oil go? drain back to tank?

other question. what does this mean?

vents have no affect on transfer pump running or not.
if the engine tank vent is clogged the transfer pump will pop the switch assy out due to pressure.

I removed vent line to breather and then emergency switch worked....

Filter is most likely. on this boat it will be a 4 hr R&R to get to the filter at tank. will move it remodel...

shade tree mechanics sure are wordy on their wiring descriptions. low low level with alarm and 2000 rpm drop = SW3 float at bottom closes the ground path and the ECU sets RPM reduction,alarm audible,alarm visual and another transfer pump on command

thanks. I do not think it is the pump or on motor level switch (magnetic level guage..) hopefully just the filter.

one last question ... friend recommended droping "seafoam" some type of injector cleaner (usually for fuel) into tank to cleanup any blockages. Sounds good.. sounds dangerous..?

 

[99yam40]

Re: external oil / everybodies favorite topic

Pull the remote tank and clean, replace the filter. would not hurt to do the same to the one on the motor also. putting stuff in the oil will not get out any trash plugging filter.

If you read some of the other posts on the oil system you will read how the pressure pops the top of the motor tank and oil runs all over the place if the switch does not shut off like it is suppose to or the vent plugs.

"I removed vent line to breather and then emergency switch worked..."
are you saying that your switch did not make electrical connection or pump would not run until you pulled the vent off? there are no pressure switches associated to that system that I know of, probably just a coincidence or you moved a wire when doing that. If the transfer pump will not run then you need to find the connection or switch that is keeping it from happening.
Do you have a Yamaha service/repair manual for your motor if not get one, it makes things a lot easier.

 

[hharbor]

Re: external oil / everybodies favorite topic

as best as I can recall .. take that for what it is worth ... I removed the vent line and tryed the switch. I had tested so many different wiring circuits trying to define what you told me (before you told me). Just to the maginitude of what I had touched and how many times I had touched it, the hose was the factor.
I visually inspected the wiring to the switch. There is also a test line to confirm power from that switch. that end of the circuit is okay.

The only wiring that could have gotten "jostled" at that moment would be the top of the level switch on the motor tank. It is a couple of inches away.

If I have an almost completely plugged filter, a small amount of backpressure could keep flow from entering the tank. I cannot confirm or deny WHEN the remote pump is running. I had it installed in the bilge, along with twin batteries, fuel/water seperator, extra bilge pump etc. when I bought the boat new.

You cannot physically HEAR the pump run unless you have your head over an inspection port, and my arms are not long enough to push the switch and listen at the same time.

BIG CLUE. That boat was purchased in 2004, annual maintaence on engine (water pump, lower unit....) BUT most likely has never seen the oil filter changed. (well maybe four years ago when I had some major water/ethanol problems. Most likely 500+ hrs per year usage.

It runs well cause it is used all the time. if used all the time then it is maintained all the time. It is very strange for this vessel to have problems. I had to lay her up for a year while we rebuilt from Ike. Probably did the most damage to her of all. not being used.

Anyway. I am going to check for flow restriction. It makes the most sense, ran the motor for an hour at 4000 rpm, oil level maintained. 15 minutes wot prop'd out at 5400 and we had no oil.

switch and vacumn maybe a fluke cause there is SO much oil in the main tank. Vapor lock, the deck fill cap is some tight.

thanks again,
I will try it by weekend, weather is a bit nasty here in galveston county.
tell ya what I find....

 

[rodbolt]

Re: external oil / everybodies favorite topic

why are you making a simple 12V system with 4 on off switches so hard.
there are no pressure or vacum switches.
there is a 12V positive displacement pump mounted in a cavity on the remote oil tank. there is an inline filter between the transfer pump inlet and the remote tank outlet. if it clogs flow can be restricted enough that the engine at high speeds can consume oil faster than it can transfer.
the transfer pump has 12V positive via the brown wire anytime the key is on.
the ecu controls the ground. once the ecu grounds it it runs until the ecu removes the ground or the key is turned off.
the switch in the tank simply alerts the ecu as to tank level, no sense in trying a transfer with an empty tank.
once the remote tank switch opens automatic transfer is prohibited and there is enough for 2 manual transfers.
the ecu controls the ground depending on the switch position in the engine tank. sw1 closed pump off,sw2 closed pump on, if transfer doesnt happen sw3 will close,pump on 2nd command,audivble and visual alarms and rpm reduction.
its incredibly simple.
sw1 and sw2 sit there and go on off on off on off, until something breaks,the remote tank filter clogs or the remote tank goes low. then sw3 gets some action.
quit trying to design a system thats worked incredibly well for almost 30 years with only minor tweaks.

 

[hharbor]

Still cannot get external oil tank to fill engine tank

Still cannot get external oil tank to fill engine tank

my 200 hp 2 cycle Yamaha 2003 saltwater will not keep oil in the tank on motor. The level switch on the motor tank appears to be working as it drops engine rpm, and alarms. Override switch will cause motor to pump. Direct power to tank when out of boat provides plenty of flow from pump.

I have had very good advise on the wiring through one of the members, including wire colors, Brown carrying the power, Yellow in the main harness from the key switch supplying power to the circuit.

Emergency switch overrides both level switches and turns on pump. it runs. have removed external tank, changed filter. Found short in motor circuit and repaired it.

From my two other posts on this subject, I have one missing fact. If level switch in external tank is busted and says external tank is empty, will it keep the pump from running?

Can I override this switch. The level switch on the engine is the life saver.

I think this switch is preventing the motor from filling. If so should the two wires be connected or apart? Should I create a complete circuit or not?

 

[rodbolt]

Re: external oil / everybodies favorite topic

twice in the above posts I told you what,why andhow SWB works and where its located.
you had the facts you failed to read them.
quit designing a system and simply maintain yours.
like I said, precision blend is an incredibly simple system,only has 4 switches and an electric pump.
2.6L v6 engines made after 1995 DO NOT use the trim sender for any oil transfer functions.
NO 3.1L motors EVER used trim position for ANY oil transfer functions.
ONLY 2.6L V6 engines from 1990 to 1995 used the trim sender for any oil transfer functions.