Force 150hp very hard to Stat hot or cold

[Bran87]

Ok I'm new here so I'll try to explain as best as possible
My (current) issue:
No matter when I try to start my outboard 150 hot or cold, I have to put it in high idle start, choke it and it will start and immediately die then I repeat this, with and without the choke until I can get it to run long enough to slam it in gear and get the boat moving.

So here's what I've done to the boat so far (has had a lot of issues)
-link and sink .....multiple times
-checked timing ...28 degrees btdc while cranking in driveway at wot, plug wires grounded
-new Tigger
-new stator
-all 3 new CD boxes
-3 out of 5 coils replaced
-new fuel bulb
-2 new fule pump diaphragms
-2 different sets of new spark plugs first champion now ngk
-added clear fuel filter before carbs
-compression test all cylinders approx. 130 psi give or take a couple pounds
-cleaned all carbs they were spotless but did it 3 times anyway haha
-set fuel air screw to 1 turn out

I have been attempting to adjust the idle screw at the base of the timing shaft with no results ...

When the boat is running it runs good at wot but it's broke down all three times I've had it out so it's getting very frustrating but I'm in too deep to quit...I live near cincinnati anyone local that knows a good force mechanic that would be helpful also

ok we'll start there and see if I get anywhere it could just need more adjusting in the right place but I'm tired of beating my head aginst this thing.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Set the air screws at 1 and 1/2 to 2 turns out.
One of the first posts in the Force forum is a link and sinc from FrankA
Do this and see if it helps.

 

[pnwboat]

Need to verify a couple of things.

Sounds like you have the Prestolite ignition system with the Blue coils and CD modules?

Need a clearer picture of exactly what is happening. Sounds like you're definitely having an issue with starting. Is the motor stopping on you when you are running? If so is it stopping at low speeds, idle etc.

Anyways, a couple of things to check. There is a black ignition ground wire that runs from the plate that the coils and CD modules are mounted on to the engine block. Make sure that wire is there and making good contact at both ends. This is the ground for the charging system and coils.

From what I can tell, you have a fuel enrichener valve. These can cause starting problems when they leak and allow extra fuel into the intake. Make sure it's working by listening closely as someone pushes in on the ignition key. You should be able to hear it "click" on and off. You can clean it out by squirting some carburetor cleaner into it. Try testing it. Remove the small supply line that goes to the fuel bowl of the carburetor ( caution, the fuel will drain out of the bowl when you do this). Blow through the line. If air passes through, then the valve is not closing. There may be a black button on top of the valve. When you push on it, it should open the valve and air should pass through it.

Does your primer bulb get firm after 4 or 5 squeezes? If not, them the needle valve in the carburetor(s) is not working as it should to stop the flow of fuel when the fuel bowl gets full. This could be due to a bad needle valve, mis-adjusted float height, or debris caught in between the needle valve and the seat. NOTE, a hole in the fuel pump diaphragm can also be a cause for this symptom.

Do you have a clear see-through in line fuel filter between the fuel pumps and carburetors? If so, does it stay pretty much full?

 

[gm280]

Bran87, :welcome: to iboats. Nice to have you aboard...

Having never worked on a Force engine, this is merely ideas to check out. The absolute first thing you have to determine is if this is from lack of spark, or fuel? One or the other is the problem. Are you certain your sparks can jump a 7/16" gap as you start the engine? Make sure because you could have a low voltage start up issue to the CD boxes. And if you know for certain the spark is great, then verify you have enough fuel in the cylinders to fire off. You can see if that is the problem by mixing up a little squirt bottle of 50:1 fuel and TWC-3 2-cycle oil and squirt some in and try cranking. If that fires up the engine, then you have a fuel delivery problem. And that could be a choke or enriching system at fault. So try to eliminate a fuel issue or a spark issue. Then you can isolate what is causing that problem. JMHO!

 

[Bran87]

Ok I knew I'd leave some stuff out haha

-Yes it is a prestoline ignition with the blue boxes
-Also it will die at slow speed ie: in gear idling
-the fuel ball does get firm after 4 to 5 pumps and the clear fuel filter stays full while running


I will double check my spark I know it had excellent spark before the last time I had it out at the end of the day it suddenly would not Rev past 3500 rpm. I checked the fuel ball and squeezed it while it was running and it was still firm and had no effect, so I believe one or two of the new coils came un grounded but I need to check this still , this is a new problem but the starting and idling problem has been aroundsince before I changed the plugs ,diaphragms, and coils

I will check the choke primer tonight but I will say it has clear line on it and I can see it move fuel when I press the key

 

[jerryjerry05]

What year?
Depending on the year/ model# you can have 3 different primer systems.
The primer system.(I think)
It only works one time when you push the key.
It has a solenoid/ diaphragm that pulses when activated.
Adding a squirt of gas into the venturi
To make it add more fuel you need to push the key repeatedly.
But if it's starting.Then the primer system is working.
What's the idle set at? Should be about 1050-1150 in N
800 in gear.

 

[pnwboat]

It might be a good idea to add another ground wire to the Coil/CD Module mounting plate.

 

[Bran87]

The motor is a 1990 model I was adding an extra ground to the coils like captain said and decide to check my plugs they all had some carbon on them (not bad) except the #4 cylinder plug which was totally clean like new still so I believe I've found part of the problem I have not changed that coil yet I will run it with the extra ground wires and see if that fixes it..... but looks like I may need another coil ? I would put one of the other ones on it but with the newer style black coil you have to cut the wire from the blue coil to attach it to the cd box

I haven't had any help to check the choke solenoid yet but I will get to it next

 

[scout-j-m]

So there was not even fuel on the plug? Typically a cylinder not firing will result in a slightly oily looking plug. Did you notice any water in there?

 

[Bran87]

No water it was oily with fuel but still shiney no carbon what so ever

 

[jerryjerry05]

The coil might NOT be the problem.
In 30 years I've only seen 1 coil bad.
A no fire situation could be the grounds, the trigger wires broken, a bad stator, a bad pack.

outboard ignition . com has test procedures.

The trigger wires are very tiny and the shrink wrap can hide a broken wire.
Try pulling on the wires and see if they stay connected.
I had a miss develop and was there for a while.Not bad usually on startup.
Then one day it wouldn't go away.
I knew what the problem was.
I replaced all the connectors on the electrical strip.
The first trigger lead I touched came apart as I tried to take it loose.

The tests can pretty much be done with an analog meter.
There are some that need a peak reading volt meter but you probably won't need that.

 

[Bran87]

Ok I looked up the trouble shooting procedures on outboard ignition.com says to check resistance on the trigger "pairs" now that I have a cdi brand trigger there is only 5 wire coming from the trigger so how would I go about checking resistance on this new style trigger?

 

[jerryjerry05]

The instruction should be for the CDI part.
From the CDI instructions.
"Check the DVA voltage from the white/black trigger to the yellow, black, brown, white and purple trigger wires. If you read 4V or more, the trigger is likely good.
What color are the trigger leads?

 

[Bran87]

My trigger leads are
white/orange
White/green
White/orange
White/orange
White/green
The directions I read are
" check resistance on the stator and trigger. trigger pairs should be approx. 50 ohms across a set (5 dva)
Stator shold be between 680-800 ohms (180 dva) or more from blue to yellow. I don't have a dva tester...

My stator wires:
Brown/ yellow
Brown/yellow
Brown/blue
Brown/blue

 

[Bran87]

Also jut tried to start it in the driveway .
New problem if I don't use the choke while turning the key it will pour gas out of the top two carbs.
Also won't run in the driveway anymore unless it's in high Rev ....if I bring it back to normal idle it will slowly loose rpm get to about 800 rpm and die.
Also ran it in high idle and intermittently trying to get it to sit and idle (never did) I pulled the #4 plug and still looks clean I did pull some other and I could see spent fuel but none on # 4

 

[jerryjerry05]

Another site: CDI Ignition .com
http://www.cdielectronics.com/
They have test procedures for their trigger.

The outboard ignition . com uses their own color code