Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

[engineproblem]

Hi everyone,
New to the site but not for asking questions..lol

Basically i have a Force 50HP (MODEL 507E91C,SERIAL 029533) and it stopped on me in the water some 2-3years ago and since been sat there until now as i would like to use it this summer.

Cant remember the exact details but i know i had the throttle wide open and it just died, it hasn't started since. What it is doing is turning over like a lazy starter, I got the starter checked which was fine but not confident i bought a new starter. The engine was still the same, i even ran jump leads straight onto the starter bypassing any bad connections, still the engine only barley turned over.

What i have noticed now is that if you have the 2 spark plugs out of the engine it will turn over real fast as it should, once you install one spark plug it turns over slower, then with the second spark plug installed it is back to the same real lazy engine. I even squirted a small drop of oil in the cylinders which had no effect.

I removed the head and using an air line blew down the ports which are not blocked, pistons look ok from what i can see. I have had a few people look at it and they cant tell me whats wrong, are the piston rings stuck or something else?

Is there anybody in Ireland that can rebuild this engine for me?

Any help would be really great full

Thanks

Brian

 

[BonairII]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

Are you absolutely sure that your battery is good? Try turning the motor over with another battery(borrow one from your car or neighbor or wherever).

Once you do that....report back.

 

[roscoe]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

Can you turn the motor with your hands while the plugs are in?

 

[engineproblem]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

Can you turn the motor with your hands while the plugs are in?

I should have said i tried jumping the engine with high quality jump lead connected to a running van with a heavy duty battery. Also tried with a heavy duty car jump pack connected straight onto the new starter i have on it.

As it was no different with the old or new starter and the fact that i'v tried several different different means of power to start it i'm sure its not an issue with the starter,battery or connections.

I will try turn the motor with my hands and the plugs in and report back tomorrow but i'm not sure if it wont.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

You need to do a compression test.
Remove both plugs and do the test.
Post the results.Then we can go from there.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

My experience has been that these starters do not jump start well. Try connecting the engine cables directly to a known good battery and then jump the small terminals on the starter solenoid. Red from battery to positive small terminal, usually yellow or yellow/black. If a different color, trace from the "S" terminal of the ignition switch to see which to jump or trace to see which terminal is ground, whichever is easier to see.

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

engines are like air pumps check the inlet and exhast is clear especially if its been laying in a shed for 3 years. the other thing i would look at is the ground cable a poor connection will cause a week starter. try a jumper cable from the ground of the battery to a clean piece on the motor from a good battery like sugested

 

[engineproblem]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

I had done the compression test a few months back but cant remember the results. I'll do it again tomorrow and post the results. I will also check the connections and wiring and post my findings. I might even post a link of a you tube video of it trying to start which might be of some help for you guys trying to diagnose the problem. Never uploading a video before so ill give it and go and be back to you tomorrow. Thanks a lot

 

[engineproblem]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

Ok so i'm uploading a video to you tube at the moment and will post the link in a minute. The compression test came in at 60 and 65 but i had oiled the cylinder a while back so i know that will increase the value, what is the compression meant to be?
With the head off there is noting obvious but then again i'm a car mechanic and know very little about 2 stroke, how do you go about checking the inlet/exhaust to see if it blocked?
Could this be a problem with a sticking piston ring or a damaged crank bearing? no damage to cylinder wall though.
I used a heavy duty jump pack with the leads directly onto the starter bypassing the starter solenoid and possible faulty wiring which will give it the best chance.

 

[engineproblem]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

Ok so, first you tube video so i hope this works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u_dSPM0-yw

 

[engineproblem]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

Also if this engine is fixable i'd like to give it a bit of an overhaul. I can do the work and learn as i go. What would one change or check and where is the best place to get the parts?

 

[bentle]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

Just another check. Have you checked the lower unit oil for any metal shavings? When they go bad there is no warning and will cause the motor to act the way you stated. If you remove the lower unit and then crank it over and it turns freely then its the lower and may be from pump housing down.

 

[Justinde]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

Hey Engine

Every problem is fixable- there's no problems, only solutions. The video worked, and I am probably NOT the best to give advice here ( cue Frank/Jerry), but the compression does seem LOW. I would have thought with low compression, the starter would spring to life, so I would be thinking wiring.

Your an auto mechanic- mate, the only thing your missing is valves. Its a 2 stroke. Needs the same as a 4 stroke, compression, fuel and spark. Without any of these three, it aint happening.

Use the forum, its a fixable thing, if the cylinders are OK, you could rebuild with new pistons/rings and a hone.

In all, my message is one of encouragement. Use the forum, ask the questions ( questions are the answer) and have a go.

Cheers

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

Profile? Location? You might be close enough that someone can help.
60-65 IS way low.
But that can be the guage.
My guage reads my cylinders 145-150# My neighbors reads 25-30#s lower than my guage.

It sounds like the head gasket might have blown???
Removing the head and you can see the inlet and exhaust.
Sounds like you might have overheated and blown the gasket???
Maybe the rings(usually only one set goes) sticking?
Pics of the gasket(both sides) and cylinders??

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

never seen a car started on a jumper cable as its amps not volts that required still looks like the cables are no able to carry the load. hook up a lugged cable then jump the solinod on a battery thats been load tested. starter should pull so many amps that the jumper cables should be sparking like hell when you clip them to the terminal. justinde is right about it being just like a 4 stroke car engine except if you keep turning it over with no premix fuel and no water to the foot its becomes expensive (no fuel equals no oil to the crank) no water and the water pump likes to melt. it is a intresting problem and if you are a gas head you might find this fun so pull off the lower unit to save your water pump (good thing to learn) then try again.

 

[roscoe]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

With compression like that, I'd pull the head off and have a good look inside.

If nothing is wrong in there, you only have to put a new head gasket on it.

And that will put that question to rest.

 

[engineproblem]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

Bentle,
no i havn't checked the lower unit. I was checking out a few you tube clips last night on how to replace the water pump as it's something on my list of things to replace so i'll remove the bottom unit today and try again as you say. Very good point you have so ill post my finding.

Justinde
I like your positive approach, i had 2 so called expects tell me the engine is F**cked and cant be fixed, I know from rebuilding car engine that every problem is fixable like you so rightly say with the right knowledge. With a new starter and using my jump pack which has 1400 amps and sparks crazy when connected. I understand what it needs to start but when it barely turns over like it is there is no way it will fire, i need to get it to a stage where it turns over fast with the spark plugs in first i recon.Thanks for your input, i will rebuild as you say once when putting all back together, any good place to get the parts?

Jeryjery05
I'm in Waterford, south Irleand. Yes it's a cheap compression tester alright so maybe cannot be relied upon. Bearing in mind i had the head of and on before the compression test, would that have a bearing on the results? I will post a picture of both sides of the gasket later for you, i was thinking sticking rings too but i'm no outboard expect. If it did overheat what would cause it, water pump?Thanks

Glenn property of pam
My jump pack is 1400amps which i'm sure is enough and i'm connecting straight onto the starter to bypass the solenoid and cables. The cables do spark crazy when connecting so i know i have a good connection. I will remove the bottom unit like you say to save damaging the pump and also to check how everything is down there and post results later. How do i lubricate the crank so i don't do damage while trying to solve this as i turn it over?

Roscoe
I have done and the cylinder walls look ok so ill remove the bottom unit and try again, any good web site for parts for these? Thanks

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

If the gasket was used it's very possible that's the problem for the comp.
You can try to put some silicone on it and try the test again.
Start from the begining.Take the starter apart and clean/rebuild it.
Then check the magnet under the flywheel.
The lower unit bearings could be siezing.
Justin,Low comp will make the starter drag and act like it's bad.
Overheat,motor clogged or bad impeller.

 

[bentle]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

After you have removed the lower you will want to make sure the motor is unable to start. Just turn it over long enough to see if it frees it up any. Could be a compression issue or electrical like already stated. Good luck either way though.

 

[wickware]

Re: Force 50HP and NO one can tell me whats wrong

What happens if the motor starts w/o the L/U? Thanks jow