Glucosamine Chondroitin

PuddleJumper

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Re: Glucosamine Chondroitin

Not a fad but the jury is still out. see article below<br />Supplements May Help Knee Arthritis<br /><br />Nov. 14, 2005 -- Arthritis sufferers may -- or may not -- benefit from a pair of popular dietary supplements, two new clinical trials suggest.<br /><br />One supplement is glucosamine, derived from the shells of crabs and lobsters. The other is chondroitin, usually derived from animal cartilage. These supplements are said to help relieve arthritis pain. They are also said to prevent the arthritic joint narrowing that causes one bone to grind against another.<br /><br />Do these supplements really work? That is what two clinical trials -- a 1,583 patient study in the U.S. and a 318 patient study in Europe -- tried to find out. Researchers reported results from both studies at this week's annual scientific meeting of the American College of Rheumatology in San Diego.<br /><br />"The supplements were not better than the placebo," Daniel O. Clegg, MD, tells WebMD. Clegg, chief of rheumatology at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City, led the NIH-sponsored U.S. study.<br /><br />Arthritis Foundation spokesman Erin Arnold, MD, has a different interpretation. Arnold, a rheumatologist with the Illinois Bone and Joint Institute in Morton Grove, Ill., notes that Clegg is focusing on the study's overall results. She says she is more impressed with the study's finding that patients with more severe arthritis pain got significant relief from the glucosamine-chondroitin combination.<br /><br />"I am very encouraged by the results of this study," Arnold tells WebMD. "The data presented certainly does not deter me from encouraging patients to try glucosamine and chondroitin."<br /><br />There is less controversy over the smaller, European study led by Gabriel Herrero-Beaumont, MD, of the Jiminez Diaz Foundation in Madrid, Spain.<br /><br />"Our results confirm previous studies," Herrero-Beaumont tells WebMD. "They demonstrate clearly that glucosamine was able to control knee osteoarthritis pain."<br /><br />Glucosamine + Chondroitin: For Bad Arthritis Pain Only?<br /><br />The U.S. trial enrolled patients aged 40 and older with knee pain due to osteoarthritis. They were randomly assigned to one of five treatments:<br /><br /> * Inactive placebo pills<br /> * Glucosamine hydrochloride at a dose of 500 milligrams three times a day<br /> * Sodium chondroitin at a dose of 400 milligrams three times a day<br /> * Combination glucosamine and chondroitin<br /> * Celebrex at a dose of 200 milligrams per day<br /><br />It is common for a pain study to show that many patients report relief from inactive placebo pills. And that happened here. Nearly 60% of patients given only placebo pills said they had less pain. So did about 67% of patients treated with combination glucosamine and chondroitin. But that isn't what scientists call a significant difference -- that is, there's more than a 5% chance the findings are just coincidence.<br /><br />"I really feel the study is a negative study," Clegg says. "I would say to patients that the safety data are really reassuring, the efficacy data are not."<br /><br />When Clegg's team looked only at patients with moderate to severe pain. Only 54% of these patients got relief from placebo. But 79% reported relief from combination glucosamine and chondroitin. That is a significant difference. But there's a problem, Clegg says. The study wasn't designed to look at just this group. The effect here is based on only a small number of patients.<br /><br />"About 20% of the study patients have moderate to severe pain," Clegg says. "Interestingly, in that subgroup, the combination of glucosamine and chondroitin appeared to be effective in relieving pain. I think this outcome is really interesting but just from a research standpoint. It is an exploratory, hypothesis-generating finding -- not a finding on which to base treatment."<br /><br />Different Opinions on U.S. Study<br /><br />The Arthritis Foundation says that the Clegg study "demonstrates that the combination of glucosamine and chondroitin may be a beneficial part of an overall treatment plan in individuals with moderate to severe knee osteoarthritis."<br /><br />This conclusion did not change after conversations with Clegg, Arnold says.<br /><br />"Based on the data we have had -- and on the use of glucosamine and chondroitin in clinical practice -- we think there is enough there to give glucosamine and chondroitin a try," she says. "It is safe."<br /><br />The study isn't the first to show that glucosamine and chondroitin help arthritis, says Andrew Shao, PhD, vice president for scientific and regulatory affairs at the Council for Responsible Nutrition, a supplement industry trade group.<br /><br />"There are at least 50 published clinical trials on either one of these supplements or the combination, with various relevant health outcomes, such as improved joint pain and improved joint space," Shao tells WebMD. "It's important to keep in mind these products support joint health. It is not necessary to restrict use to osteoarthritis sufferers. Although the research is not done yet, they might be useful for arthritis prevention, too."<br /><br />Glucosamine Better Than Tylenol?<br /><br />A more consistently positive result comes from the European study. This clinical trial randomly treated knee osteoarthritis patients with either glucosamine sulfate (one 1,500-milligram dose daily), acetaminophen (the active ingredient in Tylenol, given at the high dose 1,000 milligrams three times daily), or inactive placebo.<br /><br />After six months of treatment, patients getting either glucosamine or acetaminophen had significantly less pain than patients getting placebo pills.<br /><br />But researcher Herrero-Beaumont says that patients treated with glucosamine reported more kinds of improvement than those treated with acetaminophen.<br /><br />"Glucosamine showed more positive effects than placebo in 10 of 10 measures, whereas acetaminophen was more positive than placebo in only five of the 10," he says. "But there was no statistical significance between glucosamine and acetaminophen."<br /><br />Things to Know<br /><br />Herrero-Beaumont says that because glucosamine is extremely safe, he recommends it to patients with arthritis. But since there's some evidence that the supplement accumulates in the body, he says he advises patients to use it in three-month-on, two-month-off cycles.<br /><br />Arnold says she has yet to see any safety concerns with either glucosamine or chondroitin. She recommends that patients give it a try -- with the advice of their doctors.<br /><br />"There are things that work for certain patients that don't work for others," she says. "Based on safety, I would continue to encourage my patients to use glucosamine and chondroitin. Some of my patients who use these supplements have been able to use [fewer] anti-inflammatory and pain medications."<br /><br />Arnold is quick to warn that supplements will not cure arthritis -- and that they are only a part of a multiprong treatment.<br /><br />What does Arnold tell her patients?<br /><br />"I recommend first of all that they try only products evaluated by Consumer Laboratories or USP to make sure they have in them what they are supposed to have," she says. "Then I tell them to take half the dose in the morning and half in the evening. And I have them do at least a three-month trial before giving up."<br /><br />Industry spokesman Shao says patients should be patient.<br /><br />"Glucosamine and chondroitin are very different from some drugs used to relieve arthritis pain," he says. "Rather than mask pain, they are actually fixing the joint. But that takes time. It does not kick in after a few hours or days. It takes months for the effects to manifest."<br /><br />SOURCES: American College of Rheumatology Annual Scientific Meeting, San Diego, Nov. 12-17, 2005. News release, American College of Rheumatology. News release, Arthritis Foundation. News release, Council for Responsible Nutrition. Daniel Clegg, MD, professor and chief, division of rheumatology, University of Utah, Salt Lake City. Gabriel Herrero-Beaumont, MD, Jiminez Diaz Foundation, Madrid, Spain. Erin Arnold, MD, spokesperson, Arthritis Foundation; rheumatologist, Illinois Bone and Joint Institute, Morton Grove, Ill. Andrew Shao, PhD, vice president for scientific and regulatory affairs, Council for Responsible Nutrition, Washington.<br /><br />Reviewed by Louise Chang<br /><br /> <br /><br />WebMD Health News 2005. © 2005 WebMD Inc.
 

one more cast

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Re: Glucosamine Chondroitin

I have moderate/severe Rheumatoid Arthritis and was on Glucosamine Chondroitin for a couple of months. I did not get any relief from it but I also get no relief from most of the Arthritis drugs so I may not be a good example. I also developed High blood pressure while on it but I still have high BP so may not be related. I am going to try Noni juice in the next few weeks and see if that works. I am curently on Top Shelf meds and am starting to have drug related problems.
 

stan_deezy

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Re: Glucosamine Chondroitin

I'd ask yourself one simple question about it: how does it get into the bloodstream and then into the cartlidge or affected joints?<br /><br />The answer, so far, is it doesn't despite what the producers might tell you.<br /><br />I'm truly sorry to tell you that because I really wish it did work. I know that the pain from arthritis is debilitating and would love to have some better words to say about some of the supplements. Some of the newer forms of Methotrexate seem to have good results but so far there appears no miracle cure. Lot of money being spent on research though so hopefully we'll have something soon.
 

whywhyzed

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Re: Glucosamine Chondroitin

I have used Glucosamine (I'm not sure if hydrachloride, I took whatever the cheaper kind is... seemed to be as good as, if not better than, the more expensive kind). For about a 3 year period it really helped my knees. It was getting to the point where I would have to drag one leg going up stairs. It helped me a lot. I don't think my knees are arthritic, just damaged from years of working wearing workboots on a concrete shop floor...<br />But here's how I was able to STOP taking it completely:<br /> I lost 40 pounds...learned how to eat right, and I exercise...my knees don't bother me at all now
 

crazy charlie

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Re: Glucosamine Chondroitin

I take it daily and believe it works.I turned 46 this year and play full court basketball with 22-32 year olds.This is the first year my knees did not feel right.They would be sore for days after playing to the point where I had trouble sleeping .After 2 months of taking Gluco/condroitan(spell check me) AND doing considerable stretching exercises before and after playing including the following day,my knees are feeling much better.I cant say which is working but I do know that to get full benefits from Gluco/Condroi,it must be in your system for a while.Months !! I dont think I will ever be able to soar through the air like I once did but I am happy to say that I can compete as well and most of the time better than those 10-20 years younger than me.Charlie
 

ufm82

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Re: Glucosamine Chondroitin

I'm not an advocate or a nay-sayer but I do take a supplement everyday of the combo and I would say it is beneficial. It does require time to become effective- you can't take it and have it cure your pain in a week. <br /><br /> I have osteoarthritis in my lower back and the G/C has worked a little for me. Any relief is good as far as I am concerned. For what it costs me a day, ( I buy bulk from Sam's) it's a cheap way of reducing the pain. If it is simply a placebo and my mind thinks it works, fine. The end result is that it helps me. If I could take anything and reduce the pain I would do that instead. Your health is sometimes as much mental as physical. <br /><br />UFM82
 

Kalian

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Re: Glucosamine Chondroitin

Thanks folks. I'll continue with it for now. Anyone else who has input please reply.<br /> Good article deej.<br /> Good point Stan.<br /> Hystat, please elaborate on the diet part. Particularly as it applies to the joints and cartilage.<br /> I can certainly see the benifit of stretching and exercise. I've been trying to psych myself up enough to start a program.
 

lakelivin

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Re: Glucosamine Chondroitin

Might be worth Googleing Cosequin for some info. <br /><br />Although perhaps not directly related to humans, Cosequin was (I believe) the first gluc/chon med used for joint problems in animals (dogs & horses, mostly). Used for many years before people started trying it. Again, animal results may not be directly transferable, but I suspect there were controlled studies of gluc/chon as I believe it used to be an Rx only med for pets (may be wrong on that, too). If so, presumably whatever regulatory body oversees animal Meds would have required decent controlled studies before approval. <br /><br />Since it's considered a suppliment for people, no such testing required.<br /><br />Bet you might even get some decent info on mechanism of action. I do know dog owners who've seen tremendous improvement after several months of gluc/chon use for their pets. Obviously no placebo effect on the pets, although there could be bias w.r.t. owners interpretation of results.<br /><br />I do know that Cosequin also has 2 other active ingredients; manganese and some type of ascorbic acid. Might want to do some research on manganese in humans; I think I heard on a medical program the other day that a recent study showed that people can actually absorb it through their skin during long showers. If so, might want to avoid adding even more via supplements. <br /><br />If anyone actually does research this, please pass on any interesting findings that might be relevent to humans. I just haven't got time to do it, especially since I haven't got any joint problems.
 

crab bait

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Re: Glucosamine Chondroitin

don't want to hi-jack,, <br /><br />but if you NEVER want to ever have a cold,, take TRI-ZINC 50.. one a day. <br /><br />the reason for tri-zinc is that it has 3 forms of zinc..citrate-chelate-picolinate..<br /><br />2 of them bullet-proofs colds ..<br /><br />i don't know which two..
 

stan_deezy

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Re: Glucosamine Chondroitin

Definitely agree with you there crab bait: zinc is one of the essential minerals that is lacking in the western diet. It has a load of other properties (some of which we shouldn't discuss on a family-orienated website but it can help before the little blue pill if you get my drift?).<br />There have been lots of studies done on the beneficial properties of zinc supplements.<br /><br />Going off topic slightly: did anyone see the latest research published in the UK that shows that your mother may have been right when she told you to wrap up warm to stop you catching a cold?<br />Researchers at the Common Cold Institute subjected subjects to cold conditions and a control group to warm conditions: the "cold" group were far more likely to catch the common cold!<br /><br />And coming back on topic slightly: Lakelivin mentioned that supplements have been used to treat animals but did you ever wonder why animal medication is so much more expensive than the human equivalent? It's because the animal form is much more highly regulated and the manufacture is more tightly governed and refined :eek: <br />Makes me think my father was right: he always said he'd prefer to be treated by a vet than a doctor :D
 

Manipulator

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Re: Glucosamine Chondroitin

I have recommended Glucosamine/ Chondroitin to patients for years that suffer from degenerative arthritis. Many do quite well with it. You have to be an educated consumer when you shop for these supplements. Many products don’t meet label claims and there is no governing body that regulates them for quality such as the FDA. I would avoid any supplements sold at SAMS or any other local retailer. When it comes to supplements you get what you pay for. Listen, we know we could make gasoline from coal but can you put a piece of coal in your gas tank and make your car run on it? It all has to do with refining the material in order for you car or in this case your body to use it. Companies use binders, which is the glue that holds the pills together. Some of these binders are like crushed rocks and your body can’t properly assimilate them, thus the bioavailablity or rather what the body can use goes down. In order to keep cost down and to make the product profitable, companies will use cheap binders and cheap active ingredients. They skip the refining process, which costs more money. Much Glucosamine is derived from shellfish or other crustaceans. This is the poorest supply and you risk contamination due to our oceans being polluted with mercury and other harmful pollutants. It takes money to produce a quality supplement so don’t let the cheap stuff fool you. I once read an article that stated in Tacoma Washington the sewer department pulls 150000 pounds of supplements from their filters every month! Why? Because many people buy cheap products and the body can’t break it down. You are literally flushing your money right down the toilet. I frequently see undigested supplements on my patients x-rays. So what supplements should you buy? Look for a company that manufactures their own products. Some companies use other manufactures to make their products and they just put their name on it. You want a company that makes their own ingredients and doesn’t purchase the ingredients from a large supply house in bulk. You want a company that researches all the products they put on the market. Look for products that utilize a tablet base derived from plants. Avoid artificial ingredients such as colors. Your body does not care if the tablet is a really cool blue color. Supplements sold through healthcare professional’s will cost more but typically are higher quality. These are a few of the companies I recommend to my patients and no I don’t get kickbacks or anything else by recommending their products. Remember you are what you eat. <br /><br />Biotics Research http://www.bioticsresearch.com/CompanyOverview.htm <br />Thorne Research <br /> http://www.thorne.com/ <br />Standard Process<br /> http://www.standardprocess.com/index.asp <br /><br />As far as arthritis goes, avoid anything hydrogenated. Hydrogenated fats break down into prosteglandins, which cause inflammation. Actually there are good prosteglandins and there are bad ones. Hydrogenated fats break down into the bad ones that promote inflammation. They also promote the bad cholesterol but that’s another subject altogether. Avoid refined carbohydrates (sugar, white bread, pasta, cookies, cakes, crackers, etc.) as research has shown that they too promote inflammation. What we have used with great success in my practice is the use of Proteolytic Enzymes for the treatment of acute and chronic inflammation. You can read about the product I use here <br /><br /> http://www.bioticsresearch.com/Products/IntenzymeForte.htm <br /><br />My little spiel here is not intending to diagnosis or treat anyone here with a health condition. It’s just a guide to lead you in the right direction. Always talk to your doctor before taking your health into your own hands
 

whywhyzed

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Re: Glucosamine Chondroitin

Originally posted by Kalian:<br /> <br /> Hystat, please elaborate on the diet part. Particularly as it applies to the joints and cartilage.
nothing too fancy or special...a mainly vegetable based diet, fish for protein.. + lean chicken, avoid refined carbs.. (I keep repeating "white bread = dead") ... whole wheat pasta only....<br />I still eat the odd hamburger and fries.. but that sorta stuff tastes lousy to me now compared to when it was a staple... <br /><br />Subscribe to Men's Health magazine... the stories in there are what scared me healthy
 

whywhyzed

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Re: Glucosamine Chondroitin

Originally posted by Manipulator:<br /> <br />As far as arthritis goes, avoid anything hydrogenated. Hydrogenated fats break down into prosteglandins, which cause inflammation. Actually there are good prosteglandins and there are bad ones. Hydrogenated fats break down into the bad ones that promote inflammation. They also promote the bad cholesterol but that’s another subject altogether.
good points.<br />hydrogenated vegetable oil and "shortening" are disappearing out of a lot of prepared foods up here, not sure if in the US too.. I think it is a government regulation coming in...but a really good thing!<br /><br />that crap shows up in everything.. hot chocolate powder!..anything that needs to stay unstuck... I'm waiting for the peanut butter engineers to figure something out...all the good brands still have hydrogenated oil
 

Manipulator

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Re: Glucosamine Chondroitin

Yeah hydrogenated vegetable oil is a hard one to avoid as it is in everything. One thing I failed to mention was taking Omega 3 fatty acids. They also work great for chronic inflammation. For those that don’t know, these are you fish oils. Flax seed oil can also be a good source but I prefer the fish oil as the body has to take a few steps to convert flax seed to an active form the body can use. Fish oils don’t. Fish oils are not all created equal and you want to look for a product that says “Molecular Distilled” which removes much of the contaminates.
 

Richard Petersen

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Re: Glucosamine Chondroitin

I started taking 200mg, 1 a day, felt better in 2 weeks. Aches came back. Same worked again. Stopped taking ALL vitamins. Never felt better in my life. I am retired and stopped straining myself. Beats all the Witch Doctor crap which overloads your body with chemicals that vary from person to person. Drop the crap and use the money saved for a good steak meal.
 

Manipulator

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Re: Glucosamine Chondroitin

With Glucosamine you have to really load yourself up in the beginning. You need about 3000mg a day the first month or so to really notice the benefits. Most people do not notice much until 1-2 months of taking it. I don’t really see Glucosamine as “witchcraft crap”. There has been plenty of research on the subject. It is true that one can overload themselves on vitamins and that is why you should consult with a doctor or clinical nutritionist first. Nothing wrong with a good steak from time to time.
 

ezbtr

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Re: Glucosamine Chondroitin

I took it off and on for the last few years, especially when working in subzero temps outside, and I and even my buddies noticed I wasn't *****ing and whining :) about my knees! Completely rebuilt(4??? surgeries) from shattered left knee, and one surgery on right.<br />I also feel better I THINK because since my divorce I eat MUCH healthier!! LOL I cook(budget and my kids like my cooking)every night and I started working out, not because I need to loose weight, because I LIKE it! :) . Try it for a few weeks, seei f it works for you. Best of luck, Heinz
 

lakelivin

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crazy charlie

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Re: Glucosamine Chondroitin

Im with you Heinz,working out is good for the body and even better for the mind.By the way,I love your ketchup !! ;)
 
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