Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

POINTER94

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My brother recently purchased a boat from a dealer in michigan. Ran OK for the 2 months left in the season and when he took it to our mechanic for a once over and winterization, he found a 305 chevy truck engine, not a marine engine.<br /><br />Lawyers: Any Legal advise on how to deal with a licenced dealer misrepresenting a product?<br /><br />Mechanics: They have changed to a marine carb, alternator, welded the manifolds, and yet to find out the cooling systems modification but it does work. What else should we do and what would be the ramifications of doing nothing to the existing engine?<br /><br />All help is appreciated as my treasury is drained.<br /><br />Thaks in advance.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

Pointer,<br /><br />Got to amazon.com and look up "small block chevy marine performance" by Moore and read the first section excerpt which I posted there for free. It laysout all the differences between marine engine and auto engines and why.
 

Doug Durako

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Re: Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

As for the legal end, have your attorney send the dealer a certified letter putting them on notice with a complete list of the non-marine parts after you have the boat surveyed by a certified surveyor. Will cost you about $15 per foot of boat and maybe $100 bucks for the attorney,unless you have a legal friend.<br /><br />I'd send a copy to the chamber of commerce of the city where the dealer is located, maybe the state better business bureau, too.<br /><br />Make sure your insurance agent knows what you have---unless you already have a policy---Sticky wicket here cause if you blow somebody up, you may be SOL on the liability portion of your insurance policy. Look closely at the section in your policy listing "exclusions" to see if it says anything about motor modifications or non-marine parts.<br /><br />Personally, I would not put it back in the water until all this is sorted out.
 

Doug Durako

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Re: Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

PS----don't accuse the dealer of any wrongdoing in your letter. Believe it or not, he may not have looked very closely at the motor.<br /><br />Give him a chance to make it right by calling him up after you have drafted the letter and explaining to him what you intend to do. Always better to talk first, then send the correspondence as backup. Or meet with him in person, better yet.<br /><br />Also, small claims court is an option. A good attorney can threaten to lock up the dealer's assets, so he can't borrow money unless he shows up in small claims court and answers your complaint.<br /><br />Again, I would tell him face-to-face what you intend to do and give him the chance to make it right.
 

loadnet

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Re: Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

I'm not trying to make ya mad or anything cuz I can understand how your brother would be upset over all this - however, the lawyer is probably just going to tell ya that ya should have had the boat checked out/inspected - prior - to your purchasing it.<br /><br />Especially if your brother is not familiar with boat engines.<br /><br />I would have to bet there was no guarantee from the dealer at all on used boats or at least none over 30 days?<br /><br />The dealer probably didn't even know the thing was a truck engine or they probably wouldn't have taken it in on trade. If that's how they ended up with it on their lot?..<br /><br />Just tossing some stuff at ya, so you don't shoot or smack your lawyer when ya go see em.<br /><br />Truck motors can work, if they contain the right cam, and other related important changes.<br /><br />Go to the location described above and check out what Ralph wrote about the 2 differences.<br /><br />good reading for sure.<br /><br />I hope everything turns out in your favor.<br /><br />Take care,
 

Doug Durako

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Re: Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

Captain---good points---I am talking about anything on the motor that is not coast guard approved.<br /><br />The "buyer beware" concept does not apply if the dealer broke the law.<br /><br />Pointer---it's going to cost your brother a little no matter which way he goes. I would still compile some documentation because if he ever has an accident and the fingers start pointing, he'll need it.
 

f_inscreenname

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Re: Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

Just a couple thoughts. <br />First; are you having a problem with the motor? Is it missing the marine parts (carb, alt, started, dist ect)? The motor I have in my boat now came out of 1985 Dodge 15 pass van. I know that mine will pass any Coast Guard inspection (I go by there yard every time I am out). You just have to know what the differences are and use the right parts. Maybe the last owner had a problem with the motor (cracked block) and did a rebuild and used a truck block (by the way there is no difference between truck and marine blocks). If you do have a “straight out the truck” motor (with a auto cam, alt, started, dist ect) I aint ridding with you till you get a different boat or get it fixed. The dealer that sold it to you should bring it with in legal marine specs if he is worth a grain of salt.
 

POINTER94

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Re: Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

Thanks for all the help.<br /><br />Every bit of it was right on the mark. Lawyer contacted and echo'ed exactly what you all advised. Motor info.. I (brother) have a book to buy.<br /><br />To his credit the dealer is being accomidating in the resolution of this matter and the boat itself is in the hands of our family mechanic (for 30 years) with at least 3 different approaches on how to handle this. (He wasn't consulted on the front end cuz he is 150 miles away from bro's home and 450miles away from where the boat was purchased.) Yep it may cost a few bucks, but lemonade is on its way.<br /><br />Thanks to everyone!! I will update you in the next couple of weeks as to how this situation has played out. Its amazing the amout of knowledge out there!!!!!<br /><br />Doug
 

POINTER94

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Re: Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

f-inscreename,<br /><br />Non't being my boat, everything I am getting is second hand but it appears to have a marine carb and alternator but the rest of it is not clear. I will say in my conversation with Bill Ernst (Engine god to the lakeshore area of Wisconsin) it was not mounted correctly (or even close to aleigned), manifolds look like a hack job but they are water tight, I didn't get an answer yet on the water pump, electrical system or the cams. There is also no way to id the engine as they pulled the tag off the old engine and put it on the new. Kind of tough to work under this restriction. I will say in the 1 or 2 trips on lake geneva i experienced, it blew huge amounts of black smoke at start up until warm and was engaged into gear, and then purred like a kitten the rest of the time.<br /><br />To see the boat from what it was when my bro bought it to today you wouldn't believe it. He found paint under 8 years of oxydation that I wouldn't have dreamed. Remounted electronics in a purposeful way not just the easy way they were initially installed, patched all rips in the upholstry, and after about 60hrs of work found a really cool boat! 1990, 20' Regal Valenti cuddy. The original owner was contacted prior to purchase and they had nothing but good things to say about the boat and never mentioned any engine work needed or done to the boat.<br /><br />I should have more information by monday. If you want a ride in the spring, I am sure Greg would be happy to accomidate and the boat will meet or exceed USCG spec's. If it weren't for winter, who could afford to own a boat.<br /><br />Doug
 

Bondo

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Re: Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

I see a Major Non-Issue here........<br />Your brother bought a Trashed 13 year old boat....<br />
He found paint under 8 years of oxydation that I wouldn't have dreamed. Remounted electronics in a purposeful way not just the easy way they were initially installed, patched all rips in the upholstry, and after about 60hrs of work found a really cool boat! 1990, 20' Regal Valenti
When a boat motor blows-up, or in your case, I'd Guess a Frozen/Cracked block, a Truck motor is the Preferred Replacement motor....<br />How did you come to the conculsion it's a Truck motor ?????? Casting #s ???? Chevy Does Not use a seperate # series for Boats Or Mercruiser.... Merc., Volvo, OMC, Etc. use standard production casting motors to Convert to Marine Motors.....And Most of them are Car Motors...!!<br /><br />The Only Mistake I see that was made is, they Should have gone back in with a 350cid Truck Motor.....
 

POINTER94

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Re: Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

bondo,<br /><br />I would agree with your technical assessment of the situation. I think we can resolve the situation and make the boat whole but.....<br /><br />What if this boat was next to you, blew up and the insurance company refused to pay for your damages because of an undisclosed and improper modification. Might your perspective change?<br /><br />If it was no big deal, why was it not disclosed at the time of sale? Are you aware of any blue mercruiser engines? OMC is what he was familiar with and they are blue. If it was disclosed, would you have changed some of your prepurchase inspections? I for one would like to know who did the rebuild. What parts did they change. Why did they have the engine misaleigned. Why steel petcocks? In order to now verify the starter is a marine starter we have to pull the engine. I don't know what the reason was for the engine change. Block cracked due to poor winterization, run without oil, struck by lightning who knows, I know someone who would like to know. FYI there is a pretty good market for rebuilt MARINE engines.<br /><br />The mercruiser mechanic identified several non-standard components on initial inspection and when he has time after the fall winterization rush WE (brother) must pay for an inspection requiring the removal of the engine. Doesn't purchasing a boat from a dealer afford certain protections?<br /><br />Most importantly my entire family went for a ride on this boat. Had any of us known, nobody would have gone. We also would have not taken it to a public launch ramp endangering everyone, maybe even you, to a potential explosion. There are reasons people are licenced and it affords protection to everyone, not just the purchasing party.<br /><br />I have not indicated that the dealer is a crook, he may be unskilled, forgetful, lazy or incompetent. Nor have I requested advise on how to sue for punitive damages. I don't expect the dealer to absorb the entire financial cost of bringing this situation to an equitable conclustion. But why license anyone, if there is not a value-added aspect to the buyer and the community. Yep, nobody was hurt and now the financial aspects are in play. Thats the good news. But if busness practices that endanger the community are allowed, we all suffer. My goal is to obtain information on what is needed to make his boat safe for everyone.<br /><br />As to singling out a comment made as to the improvement of the boat, what exactly does that have to do with the safety of it? If you can only afford a 7K boat then you should expect to blow up, have the product misrepresented, anticipate non-legal modifications? And asking for information on how to make a boat safe, a non-starter?<br /><br />I really hope I am misreading your comments as this is a somewhat emotional situation for my family. I have read many of your posts and you bring alot to the discussions you post into. I don't know your background, perhaps a boat dealer, but everyone who purchases an item such as a boat should be confident the product is safe, or told what isn't. Trial an error works fine for making cookies, rolling the dice on people's safety is unacceptable. <br /><br />Thanks.
 

Capt Ken

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Re: Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

One thing I have failed to see mention is the make, model and year of the boat in question. If this boat is an older boat that may have been taken in on trade or sold as a consignment boat, then its the buyer's responsibility to check out the boat before purchasing. Anybody that would buy an automobile, boat or plane without having the vechicle checked out by an unbias party is getting what they pay for. To assume otherwise is trying to shift the blame for being stupid from the buyer to the seller.
 

Bondo

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Re: Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

Welllll......................................<br />All I Asked was, "How did you come to the conculsion it's a Truck motor ?????? Casting #s ????" <br /><br />I'm truely sorry about your brothers Delemma......<br />I've been a Mechanic, in one form or another All my Life.... I Quit working for Car Dealers, Because I Couldn't look my customers in the Eye... Car Salesmen are Thiefs... It Seems the Marine Industry is a Close Second....<br />Boats + Mercruisers are my Hobby... <br />I Don't Disagree that you have Several Issues with the Dealer.... The engine Should have been Properly Installed, With the Proper Parts.....<br />I just Question the "Lawyers, Guns,+ Money" response you're having to your brother buying a 13yr old boat, that had a Frozen Block....<br /><br /> Was the boat sold as "All Original" ??? What you're explaining is Standard Industry Practice to remedy a Frozen Block..... Although in your case, A Really Shoddy Installation......<br /><br />Up to the point of your last post before mine, I See, A 13yr old boat that someone Cleaned up.. Now it Needs a Mechanic to Tune it Up.... Clear up that Black Smoke....<br />ID tags are transfered to the new block so Merc. parts can be bought for This Installation... "Kind of tough to work under this restriction."...The 1 thing they got Right...<br /> The Block #s are Cast in to the shelf at the Rear of the Port Head... The Stamped #s are found on the block at the Leading edge of the Starboard Head.....<br />Ya, And you Want to get a set of New Manifolds..... The Welded Manifolds Should have been the Red Flag in the "Pre-puchase Inspection" <br />As well as the Color of the motor....<br />I'm Guessing you have an OMC 305, In Mercruiser Clothing.....
 

tylerin

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Re: Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

Pointer94, I think what Bondo was saying is how do you know you don't have a Marine motor? That the best replacement motor is a truck motor, and if it were him (and myself) he would have replaced it with a 350. Thats all I read. Maybe a comment of the overall condition of the boat when you bought it. But thats your business, if you need to put a little work into it to keep the price down.
 

tylerin

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Re: Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

Oops Bondo snuck in on me while I was typing
 

POINTER94

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Re: Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

Bondo,<br /><br />Seems I sent the wrong person the wrong message. You didn't cause this, and yet you are providing information to help resolve it. I'm a little on edge as I watched how hard my bro had to work to have someone do this to him.<br /><br />Involved in sales and sales management for the past ten years I am astonished that someone would make such a serious, in my opinion, (oversight?). Also when negotiating, knowing all your options is critical. Pushing the envelope in negotiations usually ends up with all parties losing, but only a fool goes to a gun fight with a knife.<br /><br />I truely appreciate you taking time to respond, and after a day waxing my boat, realize I came at you for something you have no control over. Your feedback is valued and appreciated.<br /><br />Doug
 

Bondo

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Re: Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

No Problem Doug.......<br />I'd Still like to Know,<br /> "How did you come to the conculsion it's a Truck motor ?????? Casting #s ????" <br /><br />My Guess is your brother Really Didn't do a Pre-Purchase Inspection.......... <br />IF he had he Wouldn't have Broken Your Rule;<br /><br /> "Also when negotiating, knowing all your options is critical." <br /><br />Best of Luck with it..........<br /><br />Bondo
 

POINTER94

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Re: Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

Bondo,<br /><br />Mechanic says it has: steel plugs, no oil pan sump therefor the dip stick is useless and an automotive stick must be somehow hacked in, has two different blue paint colors and black. He said an "idiot" (sorry bro) should have caught it just by looking at it. He also said that marine engines have better rods and pistons which separate it from an automotive engine, along with cams, starter, alternator, carb, etc. I am still compiling info somewhat third hand but this is what I have so far.<br /><br />Also: His opinion is that if run in seawater it wouldn't last 6 months. It will however, be run in freshwater exclusively.<br /><br />Thanks
 

POINTER94

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Re: Help! I need lawyers and mechanics

Bondo,<br /><br />Mechanic says it has: steel plugs, no oil pan sump therefor the dip stick is useless and an automotive stick must be somehow hacked in, has two different blue paint colors and black. He said an "idiot" (sorry bro) should have caught it just by looking at it. He also said that marine engines have better rods and pistons which separate it from an automotive engine, along with cams, starter, alternator, carb, etc. I am still compiling info somewhat third hand but this is what I have so far.<br /><br />Also: His opinion is that if run in seawater it wouldn't last 6 months. It will however, be run in freshwater exclusively.<br /><br />Thanks
 
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