Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle - UPDATE

having_fun

Cadet
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
13
I?ve got a question about what going on with my motor. I just bought the boat, a 16? 87 Skeeter with a 86 110hp Evinrude. Sorry this is so long, but I think its necessary for me to find out what, if anything, I?ve done wrong.

I went out in the boat 4-5 times, never for long, ~ 2 hours. Motor was running OK and we could run at ~35mph, same as when I tested drove with the previous owner. I took the cover off and noticed a plug wire was pulled from its boot so I got a replacement set from iboat, (Part # 18-5231 ). At the same time I decided to change the gear oil. It was pure white milk shake. I know that is not a good sign, but there wasn?t excessive filings on the magnet so I wasn?t in a panic. I refilled the oil, I didn?t put new screw gaskets, knowing I would be take them out in a few days anyway to take a re-look.

So, I take the boat out for a short run, I can?t wait to see what that extra cylinder will do! I run it pretty hard for about 10-15 minutes or so. She hit 45 and it sounded great! It was peeing great, idled great, and sound great at top end. All was good.

But, after idling back through a long no wake zone, it stalls just as I reach the dock. Not normal, but it started right back up and I docked and killed the engine. After I got the trailer in the water and back in the boat, I started it back up, it was very difficult but finally started. I untied and then the motor quit again. I hate it when I?m drifting and other boats are coming and going?? Whats the protocol? I just yelled to everyone I was drifting although I?ll bet they knew that by the look on my face and the sound of a cranking motor?. Very hard time starting it again and when I did, it would not hold an idle without the start level up mid way. I finally got it in gear without stall and on the trailer. I figure I had just flooded it although this did not happen the previous 4-5 times I had been out within 4-5 weeks.

I get home, motor lower end sits in the rain for 3 days. I lower the motor tilt down from the up position and out pours rain water (not unexpected), then green gear oil (unexpected). Allot of gear oil. More than what could be un burnt oil. I drain the gear oil and at first only water came out, then normal looking oil. The magnet had just as much filings on it as before, or maybe a little more, but still not excessive.

If searched here for a couple of days and understand that my prop seal is probably blown. But could the bad idle be associated with what might be happing to the bottom case? Why did the seal fail so quickly? I didn?t have pure water in before and it did not leak anything. Could it be that I ran it faster that it had run in some time? Why the rough/bad idle? Why normal amount of filings on magnet after just 1-2 outings?

Thanks for any thoughts and sorry for the length??
 

freddyray21

Commander
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
2,460
Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle and oil leak.

Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle and oil leak.

oil and water do not mix. The fact that you had it sitting for a few days let it seperate and the water came out first then the oil. If it is leaking out the prop shaft that bad when I took it apart I would have the prop shaft checked for balance. it almost sound like it is bent and tore up the seal.

The lower end is a seperate issue from the running. I would suspect a good carb overhaul is in order. On that motor it has more than one carb so proabably the carb servicing the cylinder that was unhooked will be the worse, but all need rebuilt. I
 

tashasdaddy

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
51,019
Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle and oil leak.

Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle and oil leak.

agree, see the TOP SECRET FILE.
 

having_fun

Cadet
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
13
Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle and oil leak.

Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle and oil leak.

Thanks for the replys.

Well I'm not up to speed to work on these things, and I really just want to enjoy the boat at the moment, so I brought it to the shop. The prop seal was actually missing a small section. They fixed and presure checked and all is good. They seemed to think it was fine and I didn't mention anything about a bent shaft. I'm afraid if I would have said that, it would have automaticlly needed a new one. I'm not sure how far I trust the shop yet, its all new to me. I guess I'll find out in the next few times I run it. There is no apparent vibration.

I told them about the issue I had with the idle. They called to tell me that one of the two power packs was shot. One looked to have been replaced at some point and the older one was bad. ~$140 for a new one. Its really a pain to lose power while docking for trailering, I told them to fix it.

Looking back, I'm wondering if fixing the bad wire and running at a higher RPM might have caused the blown power pack, being old and maybe on its last legs. Before I fixed the bad wire, the motor would be hitting good, but then kick-in and really go, then not, etc. Very small amounts but I noticed. Could this be a sign of a power pack on the fritz? I assumed it was the bad wire at the time.

The Top Secret Files were excellent, great reading. One day, maybe next winter, I'm going to crack into that motor, but not untill I have some FUN in it...... Oh, the joys of boat ownership., will it ever stop?
 

tashasdaddy

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
51,019
Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle and oil leak.

Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle and oil leak.

power packs are finicky, the like coils heat up and fail, then just decide to die at any minute.
 

having_fun

Cadet
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
13
Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle and oil leak.

Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle and oil leak.

So maybe I don't have "sucker" writen on my head. I hate I couldn't do this job myself, but maybe this forum will give me the courage to tackle this stuff myself.
 

kenmyfam

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Aug 10, 2006
Messages
14,392
Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle and oil leak.

Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle and oil leak.

So maybe I don't have "sucker" writen on my head. I hate I couldn't do this job myself, but maybe this forum will give me the courage to tackle this stuff myself.

You will get all the help you need here. Don't be afraid to tackle anything, however get a OEM manual.
 

having_fun

Cadet
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
13
Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle and oil leak.

Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle and oil leak.

I got the boat back from the shop. I ran it when I got home, started up and I idled it for a few minutes and it sounded good. This morning I started it up again, and again all was fine. Took it to the lake, started right up, ran great. Ran at 80% WOT for about 20 minutes, then when coming to the dock, right after I cut the throtle, it dies and will not start (turned over fine). Tried about 10+ time and no go. We got it to the dock and did some stuff for about 30 minutes. Got it started after that, but it wasn't great. Went for about a 20 minte ride again, and when I cut the throtle to an idle for the dock, died again and no restart. It died right when our wake wave hit us in the rear, that was twice. It would sort of start, run like crap, then die. Was water coming back into the exhaust, was it flooding? I couldn't figure it out. What was clear is that the new power pack did not fix the problem. Also, this problem showed up on the very day I replace a bad plug wire and started a cyclinder that hadn't run in a while.

Then I sqeeze the fuel ball about 3 times, the first sqeeze was soft, then firmed up by the third. Started right up but would only idle for a few minutes (~2). Plenty enouph to turn away hit the gas and go. Worked about 3 times like that the rest of the day. Three hits on the fuel bulb and off we went. OK, fuel issue.
So what could it be:

1) Fuel pump? But it runs forever with throtle.

2) Cloged idle holes in carb? It idles great for a few minutes.

3) Small leak in fuel system somewhere near motor? There was some gas/oil on the bottom motor housing, would that be normal?

4) Carb not filling with enouph fuel doing idle, carb float?

Thanks for any help.
 

tashasdaddy

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
51,019
Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle and oil leak.

Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle and oil leak.

is the vent open and clear on the fuel tank? bad check valve in the fuel line primer bulb? air leak in fuel line? replace all fuel lines with alcohol resistant fuel lines, from carbs to tank.
 

having_fun

Cadet
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
13
Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle - UPDATE

The vent is clear, allot of air comes out when I fill up. All the fuel lines look new with Alcohol resistance on them. The bulb is getting soft at idle (maybe before even) and doesn?t idle until I firm it up.

Question: Could the height of the bulb relative to the fuel tank make a difference? Anyway to check for an air leak?
 

having_fun

Cadet
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
13
Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle - UPDATE

Another question, could it be the fuel pump? It will run all day at any throttle position but idle. What is the easiest way to test the fuel pump?
 

socketholder

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
43
Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle - UPDATE

sound like it is flooding out with fuel,,,I would bet that a flooat is

1. stuck down
2. is a copper float and has a hole in it.
3 trash in the needle valve that the float opens and closes.
(not closing completly) after filling bowl,the fuel will run none stop through the motor.
4 needle is damaged.
 

having_fun

Cadet
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
13
Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle - UPDATE

Thanks, thats what the motor sounds like, flooded when it dies. But having to pump the bulb would seem to indicate a lack of fuel, right? So I'm confused. I will replaced the bulb because its easy and cheap, but I fear I might have to tear into them carbs, not something I have done before. I've opened up a couple carbs, one for our gas golf cart and did a rebuild on it. I would hate to make it worse............
 

R.Johnson

Rear Admiral
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
Messages
4,446
Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle - UPDATE

With two pak's, there is a blocking diode in these pak's to keep them from interfering with one an other. With this system, the bad pak will effect the good one. In more than one case. the good pak get's thrown away. The service manual explains this, an explains how to test.
 

having_fun

Cadet
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
13
Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle - UPDATE

Changing one the packs seem to do nothing (which I guess is what your saying). But the boat still runs at 45 mph at top end and seems to be running great. This is just an idle issue, could that be a power pack? I know it is fuel or spark, but with a soft bulb, surely this is pointing to a fuel issue? Then again, all this started the day I put a new spark plug wire on and revived a sleeping cyclinder.................................... or could of been the same day a piece of crap clogged a jet or got a float stuck......
 

R.Johnson

Rear Admiral
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
Messages
4,446
Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle - UPDATE

What kind of wire did you use? carbon core, or solid ? I soft bulb is a wide spot in the fuel line. Fuel is being drawn thru the bulb, and fuel line, not being pushed. It can be sucked flat from a restriction, it can't be blown up like a ballon. Where on earth does this , my bulb goes soft come from? Where does this vacuam, pressure confusion come from?
 

having_fun

Cadet
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
13
Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle - UPDATE

What kind of wire did you use? carbon core, or solid ? I soft bulb is a wide spot in the fuel line. Fuel is being drawn thru the bulb, and fuel line, not being pushed. It can be sucked flat from a restriction, it can't be blown up like a ballon. Where on earth does this , my bulb goes soft come from? Where does this vacuam, pressure confusion come from?

I used solid core I got here on iboat, replaced all four actually. Web pages says they are the ones to use.

What I mean by soft bulb is that when the engine dies shortly after going to idle, the fuel primer bulb is soft and I have to pump it firm. Then the motor idles fine for a couple minutes. What I was confused about is, could the motor really be flooding if I have to pump more fuel to the motor to get it started? When I thought it was flooding, the last thing I thought of doing was to to pump more fuel to the motor. On further thought, I guess no matter what I pump to the motor, the float, or the fuel pump will stop the fuel when it wants to.

Bottom line is I trying to figure out if I'm getting too much, or too little fuel. Should the bulb be firm or soft after running fast then going to an idle?

Thanks!
 

jbjennings

Captain
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
3,903
Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle - UPDATE

The primer bulb should not be firm during runing the motor. You pump it until it's firm when starting cold. It will get firm because the fuel bowls in the carb fill up and the float closes off the float needle, shutting fuel off and when you try to pump fuel past the float valve which is being held shut by the float, pressure builds up in the fuel line from you squeezing it and the bulb then feels firm. When the motor is running, the needle valve is open a little to let fuel in the carb and the primer bulb therefore won't feel "firm". But it should not be caved in from suction, either, unless your fuel tank vent is stopped up.
Good luck,
JBJ
 

having_fun

Cadet
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
13
Re: Help needed for diagnoses and issues with idle - UPDATE

update: I've been out a couple of times and all I did place the bulb on the boat floor, level with the bottom on the gas tank, and all seems well. No more dying when I go to idle. I had on top before. Could it be that simple?
 
Top