How did the Enviro brigade miss this one

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
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Re: How did the Enviro brigade miss this one

Yabut they aren't Americans, Vlad.

It's arrogant fat cat Americans that cause all pollution worth crusading about. It's a piece of cake to send Americans on a guilt trip. It's especially easy to get Americans to complain about what other Americans are doing. Ask AlGore.

Doing a protest march in Russia could get you shot. Sort of like and anti-gun rally in rural Texas.
 

POINTER94

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Re: How did the Enviro brigade miss this one

Carbon Credits, get your carbon credits here! Can't tell the players without your carbon credits.... :}

Oh wait, they are communists/socialists!
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Never mind.
 

bekosh

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Re: How did the Enviro brigade miss this one

I find it ironic that it produces palladium for making catalytic converters.

Kind of like the mine in Canada that produces nickel for the Toyota Prius's batterys. It pollutes so bad that nothing is left alive for miles. It is so barren, that NASA used the area to test luner rovers.:%

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/print_item.asp?NewsID=188
March 7, 2007
Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
By Chris Demorro
Staff Writer

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.
Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?

You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius’s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.

However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn’t be writing this article. It gets much worse.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.
 

Vlad D Impeller

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Re: How did the Enviro brigade miss this one

JB said:
Yabut they aren't Americans, Vlad.

It's arrogant fat cat Americans that cause all pollution worth crusading about. It's a piece of cake to send Americans on a guilt trip. It's especially easy to get Americans to complain about what other Americans are doing. Ask AlGore.

Doing a protest march in Russia could get you shot. Sort of like and anti-gun rally in rural Texas.


Aarrg be Jesus! Sometimes yer a fellow after me own heart, young lad, that was my very point. :)
 

Vlad D Impeller

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Re: How did the Enviro brigade miss this one

Ya know Bekosh, i did read something of the sort a while ago and it troubled me a bit to know that there are so many hippo's out there, who have misplaced their better judgement to the likes of comical clowns such as Mr Bill Marr (sp).
I think that i will keep ma ole' two stroke Mariner after all.
 

PW2

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Re: How did the Enviro brigade miss this one

JB said:
Yabut they aren't Americans, Vlad.

It's arrogant fat cat Americans that cause all pollution worth crusading about. It's a piece of cake to send Americans on a guilt trip. It's especially easy to get Americans to complain about what other Americans are doing. Ask AlGore.

Doing a protest march in Russia could get you shot. Sort of like and anti-gun rally in rural Texas.

What's your point, JB?

Does Russian pollution somehow make US polluters acceptable? Is it more palatable to be able to just blame some foreign entity for all the problems?

SO2 is difficult to deal with, as the easy methods of mechanical separation don't work, as the molecular weight of SO2 is so close to air.

I've lived near Sudbury, Ont for a long time, and SO2 and acid rain is a serious problem. The damage tends to confine itself to the general geographic region where it originates, for the most part. It's hardly a shock that some mine in Siberia gets less press in North America than polluting mines and what not.
 

Vlad D Impeller

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Re: How did the Enviro brigade miss this one

" Does Russian pollution somehow make US polluters acceptable? Is it more palatable to be able to just blame some foreign entity for all the problems?"

PW, It is certainly not more palatable by any stretch of one's imagination to just blame any foreign entity for our environmental problems, however when countries such as China, Russia and India are allowed to freely dump their millions of tons of toxics in the earth's atmosphere and on the land yet the issue is muted, one must question, why the double standard?
 

JB

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Re: How did the Enviro brigade miss this one

Yeah, what Vlad said, PW2.

It is unpalatable to me that USA, who has done more to clean up its act than all others in the world combined, keeps getting the spotlight of blame for this stuff. And, of course, it is all my President's fault.

Fer crying out loud, next AlGore and his crowd will be after us about polluting the atmosphere with CO2 by exhaling. Then there will be a fart tax on Froggy. (Hmmmmm. Not all that bad an idea.8) )

We have become a nation of whining victims. The ironic part is that we are always victims of the other guy.. . the other American. . .so we need laws to make the other guy behave the way we don't.
 

Boomyal

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Re: How did the Enviro brigade miss this one

It is an integral part of Liberalism to make the US out to be bad to the core. Once the Elite have succeeded in convincing the rank and file of this, they will have a free hand to exert their power to break our individual power and will.

Folks, if you haven't connected the dots yet, that is their goal.
 

tommays

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Re: How did the Enviro brigade miss this one

What I see is that the mineing for catalytic converters and high tech electric car batterys causes MORE polution than they clean UP when used

Makeing for a negitve net gain on total polution

Of corse i could be reading the spin wrong ? :)

Tommays
 

PW2

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Re: How did the Enviro brigade miss this one

I simply don't understand that logic at all.

First of all, it is impossible to have any credibility al all in working for any other nation to clean up their act, while not first doing the same for us first.

Second, regardless of what any other nation does, it does not make it acceptable for US polluters to continue to pollute, under any circumstances. "Do what I say, not as I do" does not ever work, whether you are raising kids, or involved in complex foreign relations.

As far as whose fault it is is, that is of no relevance and a separate issue.
 

Pony

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Re: How did the Enviro brigade miss this one

JB said:
It is unpalatable to me that USA, who has done more to clean up its act than all others in the world combined, keeps getting the spotlight of blame for this stuff. And, of course, it is all my President's fault.


I dont know what you expect JB, we are the world's superpower. All those who arent us are always going to scrutinize everything we do. I think that is just the price we pay.


I dont think the double standard is right at all, but that doesnt mean that we still shouldnt be looking for ways to be energy efficient. As the superpower, we probably should be taking the lead in the cause.
 

12Footer

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Re: How did the Enviro brigade miss this one



A soclialist country is god-like to the godless. shhhh.
 

bekosh

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Re: How did the Enviro brigade miss this one

PW2 said:
Second, regardless of what any other nation does, it does not make it acceptable for US polluters to continue to pollute, under any circumstances. "Do what I say, not as I do" does not ever work, whether you are raising kids, or involved in complex foreign relations.

You are right. I will immediately take steps to reduce my pollution output to less than that of Al Gore.

Done.
8)
 

QC

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Re: How did the Enviro brigade miss this one

PW,

I think the issue is that if the Enviro-whackos really cared about the environment they should focus their attention on the biggest fish . . . ;) But they have an agenda in addition to the environment. Since you brought logic up . . . For example, isn't it more logical to focus efforts on engines that on average pollute more than US products did 30 years ago? Soooooo, shouldn't we be replacing every POS in Mexico City at a lower cost than taking our vehicles to the 2010 standard and getting a larger reduction in emissions along with it? I am not sure if that is an accurate comparison, but I bet it is damn close. What's the goal? Lower emissions and more efficient vehicles for the entire planet or just for Americans? Shouldn't our efforts be focused on the biggest bang for the buck? Or is there some other reason to have less of an impact?

BTW, that is the emission credit trading concept. If GM for example bought NOx and particulate credits by cleaning up a Coal fired power plant, they should be able to avoid costly changes to vehicles that might actually make them less efficient. What's wrong with that concept? In this example you could make sure that only Americans got cleaner air, if that was for some reason the goal . . . And if Al Gore owned the credit trading company, he could make a buck or two as well . . . how sweet :=

My sig is exactly what Bekosh's and tommays' posts are about . . .
 

tommays

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Re: How did the Enviro brigade miss this one

i also no that the Acid Rain thing has calmed down for two reasons

1. We cleaned up are power plants a lot

2. At some point when measureing the air quality it was discovered that the pacific air was comeing in from china with a FULL LOAD OF ACID RAIN STUFF

Makeing it kinda of hard to stop the problem

Who would have thought that could happen :)


Tommays
 

Vlad D Impeller

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Re: How did the Enviro brigade miss this one

tommays said:
i also no that the Acid Rain thing has calmed down for two reasons

1. We cleaned up are power plants a lot

2. At some point when measureing the air quality it was discovered that the pacific air was comeing in from china with a FULL LOAD OF ACID RAIN STUFF

Makeing it kinda of hard to stop the problem

Who would have thought that could happen :)


Tommays

Certainly not Latex and the Wino, They would like to nuke every Tom, **** and Harry country that the USA have a beef with. :D d:)
 

RubberFrog

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Re: How did the Enviro brigade miss this one

I've been thinking about nuking florida 8)
 
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