Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

LubeDude

Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
6,945
"A replacement battery on the Insight retails for $6840," said Honda spokesman Mark Higgins. :eek: <br />__________________________________________________<br /><br />Now thats enough to turn me off right there. So when you go to trade the car off, do they say, "Well, you have only about 1 year left on your battery, so we will knock about $5,000.00 off the price of the car"?? Plus the disposal fee. of how much???<br /><br />You sure saved a bunch of gas though, and the impact on the earth, Zero, nada, squat.<br />---------------------------<br />
factory_gears_md_wht.gif
 

ZmOz

Captain
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Messages
3,949
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

Sorry for anybody that has one of these, but I think anybody that buys one is rather stupid. (unless you're trying to save the environment) You spend, what, $20,000 just to get good gas mileage? You can get a pretty nice used car for $15,000. Spend $5000 on gas and you still come out WAY ahead. And you'll be driving a much nicer car the whole time. Also remember that most only get around 30-40mpg, not the 60+ advertised....
 

POINTER94

Vice Admiral
Joined
Oct 12, 2003
Messages
5,031
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

I would never want one of these at this time, but thanks to all those have bought one. The recent oil price spikes indicate the need for an alternative fuel vehicle. And someone has to fund the research and create a market for this type of vehicle.<br /><br />Even if this technology proves financially unviable at least it will have been tried and dismissed. At some point the price of alternative fuels will be lower than oil and hopefully there will be a technology ready to go when we start to see $4 a gallon gas.
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

Hmmmm. There are a lot of myths out there about alternate power vehicles. At least they look like myths to me.<br /><br />A gas-electric hybrid vehicle has zero environmental impact? Wrong. Very little pollution, but not zero. They do burn petro-fuels.<br /><br />All electric vehicles have zero impact? Wrong. If the batteries are charged with power from a fossil fuel power plant they pollute.<br /><br />SUVs get 8mpg and pollute heavily? Wrong. Many SUVs get mileage in the 20mpg range and pollute no more than any other modern 20mpg vehicle.<br /><br />Diesels are gutless and pollute heavily? Wrong. Modern Diesels pollute differently (particulates and SO2) than gasoline, but, because they use so much less fuel, have less impact on the environment. On low-sulphur fuel or bio-fuels they pollute a lot less, except bio fuels leave the odor of deep fried food in their wake. That could get old and unpleasant in cities.<br /><br />Really cleaner fuels: Hydrogen, propane, alcohols, CNG. All expensive to very expensive to use.<br /><br />I think the best alternative available in the real world right now is modern, direct injected, turbo Diesels burning fuels partly or fully from renewable sources.
 

eurolarva

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
4,182
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

I think Pointer is on to something here. VCRs when they first came out were over 1000 bucks for a nice one. Same quality machine is about 30 bucks now. I test drove Toyotas Pryus and was impressed with it. It was like being in a space ship. My family of four was in it along with the salesman. My wife drove and I sat in the back with the kids and I was impressed on the power available and how quiet it was. City rated at 60 mpg and hwy at 50mpg. The batteries are charged by breaking that is why the city mileage is better. My truck only gets about 15 mpg so in one year gas savings would be around 900 dollars. Car comes with a complete warrenty on electrical system for 10 years and that includes the batteries and the waiting time to buy one and get it is 6 months. As pointer says the more people that buy these the more the price will come down. If the car went for 18 k I would have bought one.
 

JasonJ

Rear Admiral
Joined
Aug 20, 2001
Messages
4,163
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

If a person is after pure fuel economy, you still can't get better than those Geo Metros. I am seeing them all over the place now, everybody is buying up any used ones they can find. I personally wouldn't drive one, too small, but they do get great economy. As far as the new hybrids, the price would have to come down, they are still cost prohibitive. Fuel Cell is the way to go, but rebuilding the infrastructure for hydrogen (which isn't any more dangerous than gasoline) would be daunting. I think Jb has the right idea for the time being, which is efficient deisel power. Those places that can convert meat renderings into oil currently can produce diesel, the first plant should be online by the end of the year, with more plants planned.
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

Todays generation of gasoline/hybrid vehicles are test beds for other forms of electrical generation. The so called "fuel of the future" appears to be hydrogen.<br /><br />The hybrids are perfecting the electromotive drive and regenerative systems that will be used in the future. Once that is satisfactory, fuel cells, or other methods of power generation, can be substituted for internal combustion powerplants.<br /><br />Even hydrogen cars will not be zero emission. They will be zero emission from the tailpipe, yet as JB said, the fuel still has to come from somewhere. The preferred method of making hydrogen today is from natural gas.<br /><br />The only "true" zero emission vehicle would be nuclear powered. However, many completely lose their sanity when that word is mentioned. A great smear campaign has effectively cancelled that possibility for numerous generations to come.<br /><br />Much of this shift is purely political. The "greens" carry tremendous weight within the government and effectively move public opinion via the media and educational systems.<br /><br />The United States is, by far, the cleanest industrialzed country in the world. In addition, we have plenty of fossil fuels. The real demand will kick in within the next 20 years when China surpasses the US n fossil fuel consumption.<br />That may take some of the world attention off of the US.
 

UpstNYer

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Messages
105
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

Hydrogen...that's a good one. Anyone remember the Hindenberg? Just what we need, little Hindenbergs lined up nose to tail at the curb, Hindenbergs flying around every corner, kids learning to drive in a Hindenberg. By the time they armor the things enough to make them reasonably safe the efficiency will be down to what we have now; anybody's guess on the overall environmental impact. "OH, BUT IT'S SOOOO CLEEEEAN!" Nuts. At least the explosions won't release toxic gases. :rolleyes:
 

Terry H

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Sep 25, 2001
Messages
1,862
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

upstnyer...what do you think gasoline fumes will do...much more dangerous than hydrogen... :cool:
 

sloopy

Captain
Joined
Jul 12, 2002
Messages
3,000
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

Upstnyer, that is why they are developing the hydrogen fuel cell.
 

UpstNYer

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Messages
105
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

Chief: Gas fumes are very bad, no argument there. But the hydrogen (H2) molecule is very small, actually the smallest, and very hard to contain. It is much smaller than the gasoline molecule. Keeping hydrogen where it belongs is a much greater challenge. Porosity exists for hydrogen where anything else finds good containment. Hence the problem with the Hindenberg.<br /><br />Sloopy: If I'm not mistaken, the hydrogen fuel cell works to combine molecular hydrogen with molecular oxygen to create electricity, thereby deriving the power from combining hydrogen with oxygen without combustion. To create power, the fuel cell has to start with oxygen and hydrogen and combine the two to create water. So gaseous hydrogen and oxygen are the fuel for the fuel cell.<br /><br />It's true, electricity can be used to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen in water and create the two gases. But that takes the same amount of energy as what you would get from the fuel cell recombining them...actually more energy because the fuel cell can't be 100% efficient. <br /><br />It's been a few years since I studied this and brain cells have died; but that's what I remember.
 

ZmOz

Captain
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Messages
3,949
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

Comparing the Hindenberg to a hydrogen car is ridiculous. The hydrogen would be stored in a tank, which would be extremely hard to puncture. If you're in an accident that bad you'd be dead anyway, not to mention that 20 gallons of gas you're carrying around would explode just as well. The Hindenberg was bad because 1, it was in the air, and 2, it had a very large mass of hydrogen at the right ratio to burn. Maybe if your car's interior was full of hydrogen gas they might be comparable, but it's not...
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

Like I said. Mention the word nuclear, and people equate hydrogen, also, with the word-BOMB.<br /><br />Absolutely ridiculous.
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

As DJ says. <br /><br />Think about NAPALM!. That is mainly what is in your flimsy fuel tank now.
 

UpstNYer

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Messages
105
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

C'mon Oz, you know what I'm getting at. Your car's interior might very well fill up with hydrogen, it's hard to contain and tougher to detect. Think, piping--rough roads--metal fatigue--substandard materials--assembly outsourced to China--untrained repairman--improper substitution of gasket materials--cross-threaded fitting...it can go on and on. Leaking gasoline can be seen and smelled; not hydrogen. This kind of stuff belongs with NASA, not Mr. Goodwrench.<br /><br />True the Hindenberg was a big floppy gas bag operating at one atmosphere pressure. Lots of exposure to an errant source of combustion. <br /><br />In a fuel cell application the hydrogen will be compressed to several atmospheres pressure to save space. But the compressed gas is that much harder to contain and more forceful to fill a volume on escape. <br /><br />And don't forget, compressed oxygen will be nearby as well. It's much easier to contain but once a hydrogen-air blaze starts, how long will the oxygen containment keep its integrity? A collision, a rupture (or maybe a tiny leak at first), a spark ... it'll be spectacular.<br /><br />It will be cleaner though; and clean is what we want, right? No need to call the ambulance after a collision or monkey with jaws-of-life or employ para-medics. Heck no, just sweep up the ashes, pry the metal slag off the pavement and get traffic moving again. Should cut ER traffic in half.<br /><br />Seriously, I see the molecular hydrogen and oxygen needed for fuel in the fuel cell as an energy storage medium. At a fuel processing plant electrical power is used to break the bond between hydrogen and oxygen in water and liberate the two gases. Thus electrical energy is, in effect, stored in these elements by raising them to a higher energy level. They can now recombine in a controlled manner in the fuel cell and use this stored energy to generate electricity or they can recombine rapidly in combustion or an explosion generating heat and light. <br /><br />The electrical part sounds kind of like a storage battery doesn't it. But what's the fuel cell advantage? The energy/weight ratio is much better for one. Conversion efficiency is better too I believe, but I could be wrong on that. You've still got an electric motor to drive. But you put a lot of people in harms way to reap these benefits. And you still have to come up with the energy to separate the hydrogen and oxygen at the fuel processing plant.<br /><br />If we put these things on the road, we owe the terrorist car bombers an apology.<br /><br />I've said more than enough on this. No offense meant. Good night gentlemen.
 

ZmOz

Captain
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Messages
3,949
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

Originally posted by UpstNYer:<br />Leaking gasoline can be seen and smelled; not hydrogen.
If it was widely used in cars I guarantee you it would have a scent added to it, just like propane.<br /><br />
Originally posted by UpstNYer:<br /><br />And don't forget, compressed oxygen will be nearby as well.
Compressed oxygen? Maybe if you're driving an old lady with emphysema around. Cars certainly don't need compressed oxygen in order to run on hydrogen. I certainly wouldn't be worried in the least about driving in, or near a hydrogen powered vehicle...
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

Hmmm, let's see here. We already have: city buses, cop cars, taxis, government service vehicles running around with CNG (comressed natuaral gas) at 3600 psi. Not to mention propane vehicles running around at 300 psi-plus. Believe it or not, there are plenty of Hydrogen vehicles running around too, we just don't know where they are. :eek: <br /><br />CNG tanks cannot be penetrated with with high power rifle bullets, at close range. The same goes for automotive propane tanks. One would think the same, or better, rules would apply for hydrogen.<br /><br />And, OMG :eek: that "bomb" of a tank (less than .015" thick with welded seams) under your BBQ grille not 4" away from the flames. What shall we do about that?<br /><br />Yep, hydrogen is odorless and colorless. So is natuaral gas and propane. Both are "scented" to allow folks to realize there is a leak somewhere. <br /><br />As far as cutting emergency crew calls in half, maybe that's a good thing. ;) <br /><br />Around here, they send at least three vehicles, including a full blown fire engine, whether it's a gun shot wound or a sneezing fit.
 

LubeDude

Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
6,945
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

Wow, Im gone for a day and look what happens. <br /><br />Im impressed as to the knowledge here on the forums about such things.<br /><br />I still say that us Americans trying to clean up the worlds air is like trying to purify your swimmingpool by dumping a gallon of purified water into it. I think we are waisting our time and money.<br /><br />Sound like a Troll??<br /><br />Hmmm?<br />-----------------------<br />
factory_gears_md_wht.gif
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

LD,<br /><br />Your perceptions are spot on. It's political. People tend to shoot at whomever is on top of the hill. For now, that's the US.<br /><br />China soon will be.
 

ZmOz

Captain
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Messages
3,949
Re: Hybrid, Gas Electric cars.

Originally posted by DJ:<br /> Hmmm, let's see here. We already have: city buses, cop cars, taxis, government service vehicles running around with CNG (comressed natuaral gas) at 3600 psi. Not to mention propane vehicles running around at 300 psi-plus.
Yeah, in Europe propane powered vehicles are about as common as diesel is over here. They don't seem to be having too much of a problem exploding... ;)
 
Top