Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

[LubeDude]

I have become pretty good freinds with a local marine mechanic here latly. We had lunch yesterday, and we got into a discussion about the new four stroke VS two stroke engines. I came right out and ask him if he was to buy a 150 engine for a bass boat would he buy a four stroke or a 2 stroke. His answer surprised me. He said that he would buy a new Honda 4 stroke. My argument was that the 2 srtokes were a much simpler design compared to a four stroke and he told me that the electronics on the new 2 strokes were a nightmare. He went into it technicaly and I dont remember half of it, but it made sence. He has been a Mercury, evenrude and Yamaha Mechanic as well as a Honda mechanic. His loyalty is with the Honda big engines. He said that they were "Bullet Proof" and hadnt had any serious problems come into the shop and that most of the problems he has seen has been owner neglect. <br /><br />Sure changed my mind about what I might buy in the future. I wouldnt have even intertained the thought before yesterday.

 

[JB]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

Honda probably knows more about computer control of 4 stroke engines than Ford and GM combined, never mind Brunswick or Yamaha.<br /><br />On the other hand, direct injection in 2 strokes is fairly new, and computer control of DFI 2 strokes is even newer.<br /><br />Don't have experience with Honda, but I was very happy with my EFI Suzuki DF70. Were I in need of 150hp, it would probably be a Suzuki DF140 or a Honda.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

I will dispute the statement that the electronics on EFI two strokes are a nightmare. With one exception, E-tech engines use a voice coil style injector (works like a radio speaker) rather than a pulsed injector like everyone else. Therefore that part of the system requires a little more intelligence in the ECU. Other than that its a matter of timing and reading sensors which must be done whether an engine is two or four stroke. Why is it I recently saw 18 four stroke engine blocks with very large holes in them sitting on a floor at a shop at which I happened to visit. These weren't Honda's but in that same shop I saw just a couple of two stroke blocks in various stages of disassembly and they were at least 10 - 15 years old. A mechanic that is unsure of him/herself when dealing with new technology -- particularly electronics-- might push away from that technology. I happen to be old enough to have been around when automatic transmissions made their way into the automobile. The mechanics in my Dads dealership just about had a stroke when they found out they had to go to school to learn how to diagnose and rebuild them. The days of "looking" at an engine to determine whats wrong are gone. You either get on the train or stay at the station.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

So Upinsmoke, if you were given the same question, what would be your answer???<br /><br />Yesterday I would have bought a new Evenrude, but today

 

[hfreel]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

I posted a similar question a couple of weeks ago. I haven't made my decision yet and I get alot of conflicting answers. All I can do now is do my research and hope that what I buy works out. <br /><br />I am leaning towards a two stroke 150, probably an Optimax, but I am not sold yet, and this posting just gave me more to think about. I just figure the more research I do the better it will work out in the end.

 

[phatmanmike]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

so, lubey, one guy tells you to buy a honda and instantly youre the new honda spokesman?<br /><br />oh well.... to each his own<br /><br />but BULLETPROOF??????? im not so sure bout that.<br /><br />go to the honda forums and see what kinds of probs those guys have. im always seeing stuff like water in crank-case, or fuel in the oil. those are two things i dont wanna have to worry about 20 miles out into the gulf of mexico.

 

[DJ]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

Honda probably knows more about computer control of 4 stroke engines than Ford and GM combined, never mind Brunswick or Yamaha.<br />

I'll disagree with that statement. Honda had very few EFI's until the early nineties. Ford-later GM EFI'd most of their vehicles by 1983. They, Honda, were the LAST to EFI their outboards. Besides, the Japanese are outstanding "reverse engineers".<br /><br />Besides, Honda, nor any other maker, designs/builds their own engine management systems. That is farmed out to suppliers, with strict performance parameters. Almost all are designed by Bosch, Teves or yes, even Lucas.<br /><br />Technicians/mechanics will bash anything they do not understand or have experience with.<br /><br />I've seen technicians cuss an electronic system because the vehicle had a clogged fuel filter, or a weak battery. They FORGET the basics.<br /><br />It's EASY to blame the black box. Good auto technicians have gotten over that syndrome. Outboard tech's have NOT.<br /><br />I'm NOT sold on four strokes, for an outbaord. They bring their own issues.<br /><br />See this, as an example, of many.<br /><br /> http://www.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=34;t=001736;p=1#000005

 

[EZLoader]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

I found the JD Powers Report on this question:<br /><br /> http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005019

 

[DJ]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

I do not put allot of stock in JD Powers reports.<br /><br />Their findings are all over the map.<br /><br />There are some issues, with their rankings.<br /><br />1. They look at "initial" quality. The jury is still out on long term.<br /><br />2. Many owners are "new" and have no experience with other types of drive systems, or boating, for that matter.

 

[steamboatwilly]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

Who showed the d#m japs how to build motors?They took old war-two Fords,Chevys,Studebakers,etc,etc, apart. Ive saw ONE honda outboard in the past year.If they didnt have Johnson,Evinrude and Mercury to copy from,theyd still be poleing their boats around.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

Originally posted by myoutboards:<br /> so, lubey, one guy tells you to buy a honda and instantly youre the new honda spokesman?<br /><br />

Now I think that was a bit uncalled for! <br /><br />All I was saying was that I wouldnt have even intertained the purchase of a four stroke before, not that I was sold on the Idea. <br /><br />Geezzzz, get off my case!

 

[imported_Curmudgeon]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

1. They look at "initial" quality. The jury is still out on long term.<br /><br />2. Many owners are "new" and have no experience with other types of drive systems, or boating, for that matter.<br /><br />And this would be relevant for this survey because ...?<br /><br />The survey collected data from owners of new boats, certainly not the same as new boat owners. The population surveyed was owners registering new boats, not of boaters who have owned all variations of all four engine types. <br /><br />It is what it is, and it's fine for you to dispute what 12,530 respondants had to say; I doubt manufacturers will, though.

 

[DJ]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

LD,<br /><br />I'm NOT on your case. I know you're smart enough to make your own decisions.<br /><br />My view is that the four strokes are converted; automobile, motorcycle, and other power equipment engines.<br /><br />I'm NOT convinced that allot of thought went into:<br /><br />1. Corrosion protection from using untreated coolant.<br /><br />2. Running at temperatures well below the engines design parameters, eg; (making oil-they do not get hot enough to burn off condensation). That issue has plagued inboards and I/O's for years. A "serious" inboard/I/O runs a closed cooling system.<br /><br />Two stokes, by nature, run cool. The makers have long since worked out the bugs of cool running.<br /><br />There is 100 years of experience behind making two stokes darn near bulletproof. Changing the delivery method of fuel, is a minor step.

 

[DJ]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

And this would be relevant for this survey because ...?<br /><br />The survey collected data from owners of new boats, certainly not the same as new boat owners. The population surveyed was owners registering new boats, not of boaters who have owned all variations of all four engine types. <br /><br />It is what it is, and it's fine for you to dispute what 12,530 respondants had to say; I doubt manufacturers will, though. <br />

I DO dispute it. You said it yourself, "New boat owners". I don't know that they are NOT "first time boat owners". That's the difference, they (JDP) does not spell it out. <br /><br />JDP, is "dabbling" in the boat industry. The boat industry, is a hard one to judge, simply because of the variations of boats. A poorly specified boat (VERY COMMON) can sour an owner and has NOTHING to do with the actual products they purchased.<br /><br />I also find it telling that JDP DOES NOT spell out WHO sponsored the survey.<br /><br />The boating world is TOO diversified to throw a "standardized" survey at it.<br /><br />If ANYTHING, it may spell out that certain manufacturers dealers are doing a better job of spec'ing boats. <br /><br />Don't know, it's too ambiguous.

 

[BillP]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

LD,<br />He said that they were "Bullet Proof" and hadnt had any serious problems come into the shop and that most of the problems he has seen has been owner neglect. ......<br />Very interesting but ob mechanics have the skills and tools and easily do their own maintenance...normal people don't have it so easy. IMHO a big reason for "owner neglect" is due to owners not wanting to hassle with the "extra" maintenance of 4s over 2s. If you like to tinker with 2 stroke motors you will love 4 strokes.<br /><br />Besides the trickle of small Honda 4s kickers back in the 70s the 4 stroke craze is only about 10yrs old. Not long enough IMHO to prove anything. 4 strokes no longer have the low fuel burn advantage they once had...and that's 90% why most were purchased. Now 2 strokes give low burn.<br /><br />By all means, buy a 4 stroke to see what they are about. I think a lot of the "like" will depend on how much you use it. Cost and downtime to change and dipsose of oil/filters and adjust valves plays major on my DIS-satisfaction. If you don't put hrs on them quickly the maintenance MAY not big deal but if you do a lot of boating it may be a hassle. My 4 stroke specs changing/disposing oil and checking valves every 100hrs (I think newer motors are 100hrs & 400hrs). If I have the dealer do it that costs $150+ and takes a day away from boat use plus dragging it down there. If I do it at home it costs me $20 plus one Saturday morning. No contest here...2 strokes are easier.<br /><br />My last words on 4 strokes...Many pro 4 stroke people already have their mind made up to buy a 4 stroke. They erroneously compare old tech 2 strokes with new tech 4 strokes to make a case in favor. If they compared new tech 2 strokes the "word" might be different.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

I couldn't agree more. Once people buy into the myth of four-stroke it is hard for them to admit later that it was not as great as they thought it would be.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

Some asked me earlier if "I had to buy a new motor what would it be?" My answer is it depends on what boat that engine will go on and how it will be used. A blanket question gets a blanket answer: "It would be an Evinrude E-tech". However, if my boating situation changed a four-stroke might be a consideration (as on a pontoon for example). I personally feel that the jury is still out on the longevity of four-strokes where they are operated at sustained wide open throttle. When four strokes fail they tend to chuck a rod through the block or swallow a valve which holes a piston and then may or may not do other block damage. Four-strokes that have a timing belt break are almost always in for a major repair as the valves collide with pistons. Two strokes can certainly chuck a rod but there are usually symptoms that are far more noticeable and can be corrected before failure occurs.

 

[scotty c]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

after owning a number of 2-strokes including <br />2 evinrudes,a mercury,a johnson, i can honestly<br />say that my Honda beats them all hands down.<br /><br />the reports on the e-tec evinrude do look good<br />and deserve a look.<br /><br />the only down side to a 4-stroke i see is a <br />a slightly diminished hole shot<br /><br />other than that, they are great

 

[imported_Curmudgeon]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

I don't know that they are NOT "first time boat owners".<br /><br />And you don't know they are, yet insinuated such and that they don't have a clue about boats/motors.<br /><br />Most knowledgeable folks probably wouldn't take surveys from any source as a gospel truth ... nor are they likely to completely discount 'em just because the survey population may not be "pure" or they don't agree with the results.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Interesting discussion with marine mechanic!

Also true...It depends on how the question's are phrased and how the sample was taken and interpeted/twisted.