I've got the tilt and trim blues................

[84force]

Hey guys,

Need your help again. I decided I needed to add the ability to trim my 84 85hp Force outboard the easy way. So far it has not been so easy!
The original setup used a pin to adjust the trim, and the tilt was controlled by a switch on the dash. I ran accross a Force tilt and trim setup off of a 125hp motor. I have no idea what year this unit came from but it was white in color and was complete except for the hydraulic motor and valve body.
I am probably wrong in my thinking but..........., I had hoped the hydraulic motor and valve body from my original setup would work to also power the new trim unit. Hopefully I just have it plumbed incorrectly because so far my idea has not worked.
The trim unit works great and holds in the position I adjust to with no leakdown. The problem is that the tilt no longers works at all. I have tried both cylinders the new one and the old one and the same thing happens with either one. It is my understanding that once the trim unit is fully extended the tilt cylinder takes over to then tilt the motor the rest of the way up for trailering etc.
When I research the connections to the pump I find more than one combination of line connections shown depending on the model #. Example: Doug Russell Marine shows 5 different models of tilt and trim setups on his online parts catalog.
Since mine is a non-original setup I am confused on the proper line connections needed to make this work properly. The vavle body had two lines to the tilt unit and two additional ports that where plugged. I removed the plugs and I tried to make the connections as shown in my repair manuals but the pictures are not clear enough to see for sure how the lines are routed.
So far, the combinations I have tried have not worked. If anyone has been in my shoes or has any idea's concerning this situation and would like to assist me in troubleshooting that would be greatly apprieciated.
Also need to know what you guys recommend to use as hydraulic fluid in this system. I have been told to use several different things- Jack oil, 30wt non-detergent oil, Automatic transmission fluild, etc.
What do you guys recommend?

 

[RRitt]

Re: I've got the tilt and trim blues................

is your pump prestolite (original) or third party? Some third party pumps do not have "down". They just release pressure and let gravity do the work.

Assumming that you pump is prestolite. the front bottom port goes to trim up. the front side port goes to tilt up. the rearmost side port goes to tilt down. the next-to-last side port goes to trim down. the middle port should not even be threaded and is left open. If it is threaded then it should be plugged with a brass fitting.

 

[84force]

Re: I've got the tilt and trim blues................

RRitt,

Thanks for your input! The pump is original equipment so I will check to see if I have the connections as you have suggested. What type of fluid do you use?

Thanks again!

Ron

 

[RRitt]

Re: I've got the tilt and trim blues................

depends on the year. there are at least five major variations of valve body. 30W non detergent is the one fluid that works with all models. but if you have a pump made during mercury years then it has ATF. Mercury saved at least five or ten cents per engine by using ATF. Sure .... the trim system only lasted 12-15 years instead of 18-23 but what did they care? That was long after warranty ran out. If you have ATF then you are stuck with ATF until you take system completely apart and flush it out. ATF is red. Oil is honey colored.

 

[bowhuntrrl]

Re: I've got the tilt and trim blues................

depends on the year. there are at least five major variations of valve body. 30W non detergent is the one fluid that works with all models. but if you have a pump made during mercury years then it has ATF. Mercury saved at least five or ten cents per engine by using ATF. Sure .... the trim system only lasted 12-15 years instead of 18-23 but what did they care? That was long after warranty ran out. If you have ATF then you are stuck with ATF until you take system completely apart and flush it out. ATF is red. Oil is honey colored.

Please explain why ATF is not as good a lubricant as non detergent oil. Many manufacturers have switched to ATF because it is a far better lubricant. For example, in 4X4 truck transfer cases and manual transmissions, ATF is used since it provides better lubrication than oil. In many motorcycles, ATF is the only approved lubricant in the multi speed gearcases. For the life of me, I can't understand why it would not be as good as a plain, non detergent oil with no cleaning or stability additives like ATF has.

 

[RRitt]

Re: I've got the tilt and trim blues................

Please explain why ATF is not as good a lubricant as non detergent oil. Many manufacturers have switched to ATF because it is a far better lubricant. For example, in 4X4 truck transfer cases and manual transmissions, ATF is used since it provides better lubrication than oil. In many motorcycles, ATF is the only approved lubricant in the multi speed gearcases. For the life of me, I can't understand why it would not be as good as a plain, non detergent oil with no cleaning or stability additives like ATF has.

For two reasons.
First, standard buna o-rings last longer in oil. The alternative, viton, costs much more. If outboard manufacturers used viton then they would have to charge you $15 to $25 per oring. A typical trim system has about 30 o-rings.

Second, when a high pressure oring goes bad in ATF it tends to crumble and send debris throughout system. When oring goes bad in oil it either turns gooey or forms a flat spot ... but it stays in place. For comparison, if you have a force engine from '91-95' it has the same trim rams as chryslers from '70-'91. Chrysler used oil and mercury used ATF.

When your pump goes bad on chrysler or USMarine then you can pay $200 to get your pump made like new again and the whole system will work great for another 4-5 years. The pump typically goes out 18-23 years and the rams 20-30.

If you have a mercury then the pump usually goes out in 12-17 range and the trim piston is not far behind. When your pump goes out on mercury the only wise decision is a full rebuild. If you rebuild just the pump then you are at very high risk of only getting another year or two before the trim ring splits. When it does then the debris will ruin pump and you end up paying for entire rebuild anyway.

 

[84force]

Re: I've got the tilt and trim blues................

RRitt,

I NO LONGER HAVE THE TILT AND TRIM BLUES!!!!!!!

Thanks for your help, my tilt and trim is working!! I decided to use 30 wt non-detergent motor oil. In the beginning had no luck with getting the tilt cylinder to work but, the trim was working. I finally had my lovely wife come out and assist me by operating the switch while I lifted the motor all the up. I then used a 2 x 4 to hold it up (not the best way, I know). I then added more oil and ran the tilt/trim in several times in both directions. Much to my surprise the tilt unit started working! I think that the tilt cylinder was not filling with oil because of the weight of the outboard. Now everything is working just as it should. Do you know if a repair kit is available for the tilt cylinder? If so could you direct me as to where to purchase a kit that would be great. I still have a very slow leak down problem. As usually happens I was making my problem bigger than it really was.

Thanks again for the assistance!

Ron

 

[84force]

Re: I've got the tilt and trim blues................

RRitt,

I NO LONGER HAVE THE TILT AND TRIM BLUES!!!!!!!

Thanks for your help, my tilt and trim is working!! I decided to use 30 wt non-detergent motor oil. In the beginning had no luck with getting the tilt cylinder to work but, the trim was working.
I finally had my lovely wife come out and assist me by operating the switch while I lifted the motor all the way up. I then used a 2 x 4 to hold it up (not the best way, I know). I then added more oil and ran the tilt/trim several times in both directions. Much to my surprise the tilt unit started working! I think that the tilt cylinder was not filling with oil because of the weight of the outboard. Now everything is working just as it should.
Do you know if a repair kit is available for the tilt cylinder? If so could you direct me as to where to purchase a kit that would be great. I still have a very slow leak down problem.
As usually happens I was making my problem bigger than it really was.

Thanks again for the assistance!

Ron