Johnson 9.5 gouged pistons, swapping parts.

nabiul

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This is a continuation of my other thread where my motor was hard starting, had low compression, didn't reach full power, couldn't maintain rpm and then it suddenly started working fine only to have my flywheel key shear while out on the water leaving me stranded.

I tore the head open and was shocked to see deeply gouged pistons, take a look:

http://imgur.com/a/OF7x3

1. What caused this to happen? The rings are not damaged, there was good waterflow from the discharge port and the inside of the motor looked clean.
2. Did I do this or a previous owner? Both cylinders were at 70psi previously, and after the key sheared I still read 70 psi on the top cylinder before doing the tear down.

I picked up a spare evinrude 9.5 powerhead with a blown head gasket, top cylinder was heavily carbonized while bottom was spotless. I attached the johnsons starter to the head and did whatever pulling I could which wasn't fast enough for a true reading, I got 60 psi top and maybe 35 on the bottom.

3. Would the blown head gasket account for such a pressure difference or could there be other issues?

I tore the spare head open and everything was in bad shape from the water leak, there was even sideways play in the connecting rods to the crank shaft by I'd estimate 15 thou. The cylinders have 'barreled' and become wider near the exhaust ports, the rings looked completely compressed through the intake ports and on the exhaust side they were bulging out. I don't have good measuring tools but the pistons measured about 2.308 to 2.311 of ovalling at the skirt and near the top was close to 2.300 dead. And the cylinders were about 2.308 at the top to about 2.318 near the ports, I think it would be safe to say that the average clearance is 10 thou. The pistons have dark corrosion marks all over but the cylinders still have a crosshatch.

To make matters worse, the evinrude design was slightly changed from the johnson and they have different carburetor systems and I may not have a complete carb for the evinrude or one that would work with the johnson face plate. The johnson head has deep lines running up and down so I think the only way to re-use that would be an expensive re bore + new oversized pistons, but other than that everything else on the johnson powerhead looks clean and shiny with minimal sideways play.

4. Would you bother trying to make a new motor out of these parts or do I need to buy new parts/ cheaper to buy another working motor? All of the seals are gone obviously.

5. Since I've got some dead pistons and a small lathe to play with, what about some exotic options like electroplating the pistons and turning them down to size?
 

gm280

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Looks like you will need new pistons and rings and to have which ever block you decide to use bored out to the next size that the machine shop can clean up the cylinders too. If everything else is good, a gasket kit and pistons and rings would give you a like new engine again. But that has to be your decision and nobody else's. You only know what you want to do. We can offer ideas, but you have to make the final decision.... JMHO!
 

racerone

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O/S pistons may be hard to find.------By far the best option is to find parts motors.-----Depending on your location there are lots of them around.-----Have many parts here.
 

HighTrim

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The cheapest and easiest option is to find a good powerhead, with good compression and bolt it on.

I myself like to rebuild them, and lost money in the process ;) But that is me.

I too have many 9.5hp parts, don't think I have a good powerhead around though. At one time I had many. Maybe racerone has one. We are both in Ontario.

I actually have a "rebuild kit" from the dealer for a 9.5hp.

It is what the mechanic at the dealers would grab to do a FULL rebuild on a clients motor. It has every single item in it, from pistons to rings, to rods to carb kit to water pump. I don't want to sell it though, I like to keep it as an item to chat about.

If you need pistons, rings, rods, head gaskets, etc... I can help there though.
 

nabiul

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Really, are you guys in the AOMCI maple leaf chapter? I'm in scarborough and have been getting some help from ken of kenadian outboards if you guys know him.

How much does a good powerhead go for usually? I'm already $250 into this motor.

Do you have any new head gaskets? Even with a good powerhead I would have to replace the gaskets for any kind of reliability.
 

HighTrim

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I know Ken very well. Ask him for Chris' contact info. Yes I am an AOMCI member, and Maple Leaf member. A whole 9.5 parts motor should be easy, and cheap to find. I had a shed full of them at one time. Sorry I don't have any left now, nor a powerhead. Post a wanted ad on kijiji, or on the maple leaf chapter website. You would likely get a whole parts motor, for the same amount as a good powerhead, so that is what I would look for.
 

orbanp

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...

I tore the head open and was shocked to see deeply gouged pistons, take a look:

http://imgur.com/a/OF7x3

...
Just curious, how does the cylinder look like?
Do you have corresponding gouge marks in the cylinder wall as well?
Did you find any junk in the transfer ports that could have caused those gauging on the piston?
How are the crankshaft and and conrod bearings? Did you have all the rollers from those bearings?

If there are no marks on the cylinder wall, any chance that the PO rebuilt this engine with that marked piston?
It is the piston rings and the cylinder wall contact that provides the seal and is responsible mainly for the compression. The piston skirt just "leads" the piston and the rings. having that gouge mark in the piston skirt does not hider that.
This engine has reed valves if I am correct, so the piston skirt does not control an intake port.
So if the cylinder wall is OK, and the rings also look OK from the picture, then this still might work.

Regards, Peter
 

nabiul

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The cylinders had the pieces of the piston fused to the walls and there were up and down lines running all over that you can feel by touching.
No metal debris anywhere else in the motor.
The bearings on the johnson look good, the evinrude head is not soo good.

The compression reading after our accident was the same as before, so I do think the previous owner rebuilt it in that condition and the first time we started the engine it fired right up. It was the subsequent times that it became really hard and we couldn't tell if it was because of bad carb or something else. When we opened it up a tea spoon of water and oil came out of the crank case.
 

orbanp

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Hi Nabiul,

You could clean off the aluminum from the cylinder wall with muriatic acid, it will dissolve the aluminum but not the cast-in sleeve. Make sure the acid does not get to the other parts of the aluminum cylinder casting. Best to dip a piece of paper towel into the acid and keep the cylinder wall wet with that till it cleans up the smeared on aluminum. You could also just use Q-tips, depending the area you need to clean.
Check the cylinder wall after it. If your finger nail catches in any of the grooves left in the in the cylinder wall then the cylinder probably needs to be rebored. If the grooves are smaller than that, then you can probably get by with a light honing/deglazing and new rings on the pistons.
Do a search in the forum on this, there were lots of discussions about this.

Good luck, Peter
 
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nabiul

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I've decided to use the evinrude head and got it almost cleaned up for reassembly. Just for kicks I tried out each set of pistons, the 'good' ones slid in extremely easily and the 'bad' ones took a little pushing.

Does it mean anything if the rings on the bad set of pistons look more compressed through the ports than the good set of pistons?
 
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nabiul

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I got the motor working again, but all that work cleaning it out, making new seals and swapping parts seems to have done nothing. The motor is still hard starting (maybe a little easier now) and it seems to 'kick' alot when it's cold, it will suddenly drop in rpms like it's cutting out. Maybe I also lowered the fuel economy, it seems to drain the float bowl and sediment bowl within 25 seconds on idle.

I don't know maybe the gas is just bad, it's the same mix from a month ago.
 

HighTrim

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Sounds like it is lean. You have tried adjusting the needles correct? What did you seal the crank halves with?

Those 9.5s are a little finicky to set, if you have never set one before. Piece of cake once you are familiar with them. The linc n sync needs to be set correctly as an example.
 

nabiul

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I think I have the low speed dialed in to around 3/4 to 1-1/2 turns, it may have stopped kicking with more fuel or just warmed up. I used some '3m automotive sealant' which just looks like regular silicone for the crank halves. I did the sync, set the cam follower to the notch in the cam and then tightened the throttle lever against it.

I will have to do another cold start tomorrow and see how it is. I don't know, what do you think is a reasonable amount of pulling to get a motor started in 8C weather?

And I want to stop the flywheel key from breaking again, I tightened the nut using a socket wrench and then hit it with a soft hammer a number of times while holding onto the flywheel, I'm worried this is not enough?
 

racerone

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If everything is in order 3 pulls should start a motor !!---Flywheel keys shear because the tapers are not locking.--Lap the tapers with some valve grinding compound.-And take note of how the key is installed too.
 

S.A. Baker

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Looks like cold seizure to me. Water cooled engines must be up to operating temperature before winding them up ! Pistons expand first. If the block is cold ... That is what you end up with.
 

nabiul

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I've tried for a couple of days now; I get about 6 pulls to start from completely dry which I guess isn't so bad, a couple of pulls to fill the carburetor and then it fires up on the 6th pull. Still not great as I have to kill the choke immediately to keep it running.
 

racerone

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?????---------Are you not using the manual pump / primer bulb to fill the carburetor ??
 

nabiul

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Yeah I pump until the filter bowl is full, then pull once, pump again and then pull until start. The fuel fills up the filter bowl and then the fuel pump draws from there and fills the carb? No?
 

racerone

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When you operate the bulb , fuel goes through the filter bowl, through the pump and fills the carburetor.----When motor starts the fuel pump kicks in to keep the carburetor full.---Filter bowl does not need to be full when motor is running !----When you take the time to learn how thing work then trouble shooting / repairing a motor will be so much simpler.
 
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HighTrim

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Pump until the bulb is firm and you cannot pump anymore. That is when the float bowl is filled, and the needle "seats", causing the restriction and hence the firm bulb.
 
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