Just Curious

Andrew Leigh

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jun 17, 2003
Messages
431
Hi,<br /><br />being a new boater I am left a little perplexed with regard to "extra's". To be contentious lets look at one in specific.<br /><br />a) Outboard motor makers must spend a huge amount of time and effort establishing some form of competitive edge with their product. I find it difficult to believe that if "hydrofoils" were such a wonderful invention that the motor makers have yet to include this as a design feature.<br /><br />PS: I have Hydrofoils so this is not a crusade.<br /><br />An automotive related one would be these wonder oils that allow your engine to run with the sump dry whilst being sprayed with water with no apparent harmful affect. Surely the major auto boy's would have "seen the light" and switched.<br /><br />Is this a case of more marketing blurb that fact? Are the manufacturers really that stupid that they are missing technological advances?<br /><br />Any other opinions?<br /><br />Cheers<br />Andrew
 

Hooty

Rear Admiral
Joined
Oct 2, 2001
Messages
4,496
Re: Just Curious

I can think of one boat manufacturer that builds hydrofoils-Allison.<br /><br />c/6<br />Hooty
 

tylerin

Commander
Joined
Jul 25, 2003
Messages
2,368
Re: Just Curious

Andrew, As far as the hydrofoils go, I think it because in most cases outboard motor and hull manufacturers are two seperate companies. I'm more inclined to blame the hull design and/or the fact that there are many underpowered boats. One motor put on two diff. hulls will produce two diff. results. One needing a hydro, smaller prop etc., while the other one is good to go.
 

Ralph 123

Captain
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
3,983
Re: Just Curious

I am with tylerin - more a function of the hull/ engine combo. And, in some cases tabs are a better solution than hydrofoils. If you search the board you will find a very good explination why from guys who work for Smarttab and Bennett.
 

Andrew Leigh

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jun 17, 2003
Messages
431
Re: Just Curious

Hi,<br /><br />I was not thinking of the "package deal" that could cause one to have to tweak the system.<br /><br />Cheers<br />Andrew
 

crab bait

Captain
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Messages
3,831
Re: Just Curious

some people don't like whaletails.. why spoil a sale to the public.. if'n you want 'em,,, put 'em on... if'n ya don't ,, look ,, they ain't on here..<br /><br />as for oils.. you'll get an answer... LUBEDUDE ain't woke up yet... ;)
 

LubeDude

Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
6,945
Re: Just Curious

Im awake now!!<br /><br />Wonder oils, HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!<br />Well, its almost imposable to find a really Bad oil anymore, Use it, change it at a resonable time and you will be fine, However there are better products that allow you to go longer on drain intervals "if you want to"! It is a (Religion ya know)!<br /><br />Almost every additive that claims something to good to be true is! ProLong and Slick50) are absolutly snake oils!!! Can actually cause damage to your engine! Just search the web and you will find out!!<br /><br />Buy using an additive you are saying that you do not trust the oil company and you think you can do better by deluting the product that he has spend countless hours designing)!
 

pjc

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jun 29, 2003
Messages
1,856
Re: Just Curious

and many bureaucratic dollars spent for licensing/trademark/blablabla, as well as dollars spent in a test lab. <br /> :D <br />--hey bubbakat--I used the spell check tool you provided a link to for this post--I will only endorse your spell check link for a bit so as not to become a nuisance to folks here) :D
 

Jdeagro

iboats.com Partner
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Messages
1,682
Re: Just Curious

Andrew;<br /><br />I just wrote this in response to another question and I think it applies to yours as well. <br />Here it is ---<br />"Most people on this site already know that I am not a fan of hydrofoils, for a number of reasons. However you should also know that I have a proprietary interest in Smart Tabs. With that, make your own judgment regarding what I have to say. Unfortunately there are many misconceptions regarding boat performance, and my attempts to answer questions get lengthy. If I offend anyone, I am sorry, if your interested in an opinion read on, if not - - - move on to something else. <br /><br />With the popularity of the "V" hull design (when I was a kid the boats where flat in the back) came performance advantages such as faster boats, better ride through the waves, and better tracking. That is the plus side!<br /><br />The "V" design also made planing more difficult, increased the bow rise on acceleration as well as slow speeds, and increased the sensitivity to port / starboard listing.<br /><br />Most manufacturers provide tilt trim on the motor or out drive which uses the prop to help lift the stern during acceleration, facilitating planing.<br /><br />Given that stern drive (I/O's) and outboards powered boats are heavily weighted to the rear, the bow will rise on acceleration until there is enough water pressure (speed) to raise the stern (planing). Adding more surface area in the rear to help lift the boat and will facilitate planing.<br />The larger the surface the better control and easier it is to plane. <br /><br />The best solution is to use trim tabs which are adjustable, similar to flaps on airplane wings. The tabs should be size in proportion to the boat size to be effective. They also need to be adjustable. You need more deployment upon acceleration and little or none once on plane. <br /><br />Most boaters think that the benefit of trim tabs is simply to help get the boat on plane. This is only a small part of their benefit when used correctly. You can eliminate porpoising, chine walk (on fast boats), correct listing, control attitude in any seas, stay on plane at much lower speeds (good for towing tubes or in rough water), minimize bow rise at slow speeds (no wake zone), improve acceleration and Smart tabs will also improve top speed. In addition, the overall fuel economy will improve, and the stress on the engine will be reduced.<br /><br />The disadvantage with any fixed position devise such as hydrofoils or fixed plates and tabs is that they only provide improvement in one specific area of performance. For example, a fixed plate which is deployed to facilitate planing will impair the top end performance by causing excessive bow pressure which will result in bow steering. Once the boat is on plane the deployment is detrimental to performance.<br /><br />Hydrofoils, because of the limited size, provide marginal lift at low speeds, however once on plane, and at higher speeds (35 MPH+), they continue to lift creating a bow down issue (excessive bow pressure). Like fixed plates this results in bow steering, and lose of both economy and top speed. The economy is not effected (generally) at speeds below 30 MPH, because the speed has not produced the extra lift to push the bow down. <br /><br />It is not advisable to concentrate lift from the center of the boat (especially "V" hull designs) as with hydrofoils. This creates additional stress on the motor mounts and lower unit as well as a "teeter totter effect" with side to side movements and turns. <br /><br />The minimal surface area of the hydrofoil, which has marginal effect at slow speeds, becomes more influential at higher speeds (when lift is no longer required). Look at the bare foot water skier. They can not get up on their feet alone, but once the speed is fast their small foot prints are sufficient to support their weight (lift). Once on plane the boat does not need additional lift.<br /><br />Using the tilt trim on the motor simply uses the prop angle to help lift the boat. This is also marginally effective. The reason that the manufacturers (boat builders) prefer this on small fast boats is that it is safe, and less expensive than manually operated (helm controlled) trim tabs. A side note - Smart tabs are automatic and not driver controlled. <br /><br />Tilting the motor (prop) is not an efficient use of the prop torque (thrust). The most efficient angle for the prop is perpendicular to the water surface. Tilting in or out sacrifices the torque in favor (compromise) of the boat attitude. The prop is for propelling. Let the trim tabs control attitude. <br /><br />Changing prop pitch to achieve better acceleration and planing, will only sacrifice top speed, and run the engine faster than required. It's like driving around in first gear.<br /><br />Most boaters measure the performance of the boat by how quickly it will plane at near full throttle. Full throttle accelerations are costly in terms of fuel, and wear and tear on the engine. It is not necessary! With trim tabs (Smart Tabs) the boat can be accelerated slowly and rise to plane easily. Of course the full throttle accelerations will improve significantly also. <br /><br />In short, having a variable surface (attached to the hull) allows the hull design to change in direct proportion to the changing conditions of weight, speed, waves, etc. The improvement in performance, handling, ride comfort, and fuel efficiency is significant. Smart Tabs go one step further by automatically adjusting and acting like a vehicle suspension system when cruising. Smart Tabs are limited to boats under 22ft long."
 

Andrew Leigh

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jun 17, 2003
Messages
431
Re: Just Curious

Hi John,<br /><br />Thanks for the lengthy post, certainly explained some dynamics I was not aware of.<br /><br />Would hydrofoils then bring about a situation where one would require more force to turn the steering wheel?<br /><br />Lubedude, thought those additive things were snake oils. Thanks<br /><br />Cheers<br />Andrew
 

crab bait

Captain
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Messages
3,831
Re: Just Curious

i think,, really do,, that whale tails are gods gift to smaller boats..i love 'em an would not ever NOT have 'em on a boat of mine..IMHO... <br /><br /> i take 'em off one time for a test ride.. know right then to dock-up to put 'em back on... but if'n a boat ran better without ,, i still probably keep 'em on cause it must be a fluke.. in test it sometime later,maybe.. <br /><br />i think there great..an can't say enuff about 'em.. they're cheap ,easy install, no hassle, no maintenance.. great..
 

SeaMasterZ@aol.com

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
May 21, 2003
Messages
1,924
Re: Just Curious

unless your boat does ok without em, then they are a drag on the boat, cost ya top end<br /><br />but I suppose they get you on plane quicker<br /><br />bummer if ya run twins, cost twice as much, LOL<br /><br />ah well!
 

Jdeagro

iboats.com Partner
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Messages
1,682
Re: Just Curious

Andrew;<br /><br />Your welcome - sometimes people think I am too lengthy, but after many years of listening to boat builders and dealers try to tell people that a poor handling boat is as good as it gets, you first need to deal with the misconceptions.<br /><br />Boat handling (and performance) is all about balance!<br /><br />With regard to your quest of steering, I can only tell you what is typical. When cruising at say 35 MPH, if the stern has too much lift the bow is obviously being pushed down. (the boat rotates in all directions on an axis) If the tilt trim on the motor can counter act the excess stern lift and bow down attitude, then the steering is not likely to be much of an issue in shallow turns. In sharp turns, especially on a deep "V" boat the extra stern lift from the foil will exaggerate the leaning in the turn. Keep in mind that the extra lift from the foil is in the center of the boat and can not help the port starboard listing, it can only make it worse.<br /><br />The lift at the stern which is pushing the bow down, combined with the excessive leaning in the turn, makes the boat bow steer (dive into the turns). Since there are many different boat designs, each will react a bit different, but there is little doubt that these extra forces will adversely influence the handling. <br /><br />Most people think that the reason a hydrofoil makes the boat slower is the drag on the lower unit created by the extra surface. This is generally not the case fro boats that run 50 MPH or less. The drag is minimal and on it's own may be immeasurable. What happens on boats that run above 30 MPH, is that the excessive lift from the foil pushes the stern up and the bow down. This makes the boat run with more surface area in the water, and by using the tilt trim to bring the bow back up, the prop is running at an angle through the water (not perpendicular) and loose bite on the outer edges. Less bite less speed, more boat in the water less speed.<br /><br />The Smart Tabs can only provide a regulated amount of lift at the stern which is directly related to the actuator load rating. When the water pressure exceeds the load rating of the actuator, the plates are pushed up. Since they can be pushed up beyond the horizontal position, the load (lift )is never more. In the case of our strongest actuators the lift is 80 Lb. each, or 160 lb..<br /><br />As a matter of practical comparison to a larger hydrofoil - the lift can exceed 400 to 500 lb.. at speeds above 45 MPH.
 

Andrew Leigh

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jun 17, 2003
Messages
431
Re: Just Curious

Hi John,<br /><br />perhaps it is time to let uyou know what my rig is. A 17' shallow V bowrider of local design, a '98 model, it is fitted with a 115 '98 Evinrude SPL which is fitted with "Hydrofoils". The total hull mass (dry excl. motor)is about 950 lbs. <br /><br />I don't need holeshot abilitites or massive performance but would like to have the rig running at it's optimal. I currently can maintain the plane at 2800 - 3000 rpm with two in the boat, myself and the missus at a total of 430lbs. I am also able to get 5400rpm at 5600" MSL.<br /><br />I have what I call an "attitude meter" on the boat which I suppose shows the attitude of the boat to the water. At best trim I am at the most extreme setting according to the meter (bow out the water). This seems to bear out that the bow is forced down and that one needs to compensate dramatically with the trim?<br /><br />Are there limits to boat size vs. trim tabs?<br /><br />Will be taking the boat out on Thursday, if the opportunity arises might try with and without the Hydrofoils just to see what, if any, and to what degree one can tell the difference.<br /><br />The design of the transom on my boat will make it very difficult to fit trim tabs.<br /><br />Cheers<br />Andrew
 

Jdeagro

iboats.com Partner
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Messages
1,682
Re: Just Curious

Andrew;<br /><br />If you remove the hydrofoil, you should see a slower time to plane, but more top speed when the tilt trim is set for the best prop angle.<br /><br />For mounting the tabs you will need a flat surface (on the perpendicular plane of the transom) about 11.5" wide at the bottom edge of the hull. You can disregard the strakes ( ribs on the bottom). The hinge is 10" long with the plate extending about 1.2" on each end. There are five screws / holes spaced 2" apart on center.<br /><br />Up 11" up from the center of the plate you will need to mount the top transom bracket. The foot print of this bracket is 3/4" wide and 2.0" high.<br /><br />If you can send pictures of your transom i will be happy to make some suggestions. John@nauticusinc.com<br /><br />As for application - Smart Tabs are specifically designd for boat from 10' to 22' in length. There are three size plates 7"x8" , and 9"x 8", and 12" x 9". The pressure of th actuator is proportionate to the engine size (HP), and the come in 20, 30, 40, 60, 80 Lb. ratings.<br /><br />For your boat i would use the ST1290-60 which is the 12 x 9 plates and 60 Lb actuators. Since your top RPMs are close to the recommended Maximum, I would not change props. The Smart Tabs (properly adjusted) will give you another 100 to 200 RPMs and resulting increase in top speed. In fact you should get more speed at every RPM level.
 
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