Less air & water toxicity with Amsoil at 100:1

[pecheux]

I have been reading pros and cons regarding usage of synthetic Amsoil Saber at 100:1 ratio and even lubeman (amsoil dealer) seams sceptic about Amsoil even producing that kind of oil designed for lean mix. Personaly I think AMsoil top man (forgot his name) had (and has) vision about extreme air and water polution by 2 cycles outboard engines and meant to produce and oil that would cut down on air and water toxicity by making it richer so as to use it at 100:1 ratio.<br />Well that just my way to phrase it.<br /><br />Motor were built for a 50:1 mix ratio ... BUT that's with using conventional 2 cycles oils. Seems that what was designed here with the Saber Outboard 100:1 mix ratio is a different type of oil that would lubricate as much as a regular oil at 50:1<br /><br />If that is THE fact ... then most arguments I have read are meaningless. Too many outboard owners have used it in both big and small outboard motors to say the product does not deliver. <br /><br />Nevertheless I presume that this does not mean that Amsoil has to be a better oil althought it might be ... it just means it was designed to do the 50:1 job at 100:1 That's what I think I have read all related posting.<br /><br />Also I am not surprised that AMsoil recommends using the Saber Outboard oil at richer mix for racing motors and commercial usage. (80:1 & 50:1)<br />Race cars and trucks have some of the same higher requirements for their oil also. I presume most of us here on these forums are using pleasure crafts for sunday runs and weekend fishing. <br /><br />I think it is reasonable that others that run the ocean for hours at WOT use a richer mix with Amsoil just as they should run 40:1 to 45:1 with regular TcW3 oils (as per my merc mecanic)<br /><br />Perhaps using lean mix that could reduce engine life is the price to pay to show our care for this planet. We do run expensive anti-polution devices in our cars that reduces power and performance. What is wrong with doing so with outboard motors if this is the case ?<br /><br />May I note here that I was slighly disapointed with the statements from lubedude as he mentioned a few times that he wished Amsoil would stick with the Injector oil at 50:1 He is probably tired of having to explain the benefits of using that Saber 100:1 oil to those who dont understand the chemical behind it. <br /><br />Anyway I would like to have comments regarding the cleaner air and lower water toxicity behing the usage of the Saber Outboard oil that was designed to be used at 100:1 mix ratio for what I suspect is exactly that purpose.

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: Less air & water toxicity with Amsoil at 100:1

Good argument, but 30% of fuel used goes straight into the water at low RPMs with conventional 2-strokes (they're much more efficient at high RPMs). So if you were running it slow all the time, more than a gallon of a six gallon tank is polluting the water anyhow. Does it really matter if it's oil or gas? Mercury used to offer a biodegradable oil. That would probably be better for the environment at 50:1 than any others at any ratio. But nobody bought it and I believe it's been off the market a few years now.<br /><br />Another thing you have to consider is what's being left behind inside the motor. At 100:1, all the oil is used up leaving very little residual to protect the internal steel parts from rusting up. Johnnyrude and Yamaha both offered 100:1 motors for a time but Johnnyrude went back to 50:1 mostly because of that. Yamaha may still offer a few models, they did for several years, Johnnyrude only two.

 

[Chief101]

Re: Less air & water toxicity with Amsoil at 100:1

What I found out is that synthetic oils burn at higher temps than the traditional dino oils and with the smaller hp outboards that I have used it in(granted not the same brand of oils you are talking about here) is that most the oil came out the exhaust unburned and made a real mess. The engines I used it in didn't have thermostat temp control and that may make a diference, I dunno, but 100:1 synthetic oil may not be the answer you are looking for, then again it may. You'll just have to do the testing and see if it does the job you need it to. Since you have numerous small outboards you have your job cut out for you. If you can find an oil that will run in a carbed 2 cycle outboard engine with very little polution I am sure the boating world will be thrilled, and so will the green people, and most if not all of us. Chief Chief

 

[cobra 3.0]

Re: Less air & water toxicity with Amsoil at 100:1

Chief 100, this is the first I hear about syn oil not burning as well as regular dino oil. Are you sure that it isn't the syn oil which is removing some of the crud from inside your engine? The reason I suspect this, is because many know how syn oil cleans out the crud in 4 cycle engines (and even brings out leaks from gaskets on older engines.) It's a theory anyways...<br /><br />Also, syn oil is known to stick better to metal parts in 4 cycle car engines or so we're often told. If the same holds true in 2 cycle engines, then 100:1 with syn may actually protect just as well as people claim as 50:1 dyno oil providing it indeed clings to bearings and other metal parts better. So there may indeed be just as much lubricity with the Saber syn oil as regular dyno oil.

 

[CATransplant]

Re: Less air & water toxicity with Amsoil at 100:1

If you're genuinely concerned about pollution from your outboard, trade it in for a 4-stroke. <br /><br />Otherwise, use a 50:1 mix. It's that simple. You might get away with the 100:1, and you might not. No room for error there.

 

[phatmanmike]

Re: Less air & water toxicity with Amsoil at 100:1

Originally posted by CATransplant:<br /> If you're genuinely concerned about pollution from your outboard, trade it in for a 4-stroke. <br /><br />

yeah, 4 strokes make no pollution, i forgot.

 

[steelespike]

Re: Less air & water toxicity with Amsoil at 100:1

As I understand it through etec testing an etec 2 stroke is much much cleaner than a 4 stroke.<br /> I don't remember specifics but it was something like 100s of parts per million with etec 2 sroke compared to 1000s of parts per million on a 4 stroke.Two common 4 strokes tested.<br /> Also I was under the impression that artificial<br />2 stroke oil is biodegradeable.Does anyone know for sure?

 

[Chief101]

Re: Less air & water toxicity with Amsoil at 100:1

Cobra says over his second cup of coffee, "Chief 100, this is the first I hear about syn oil not burning as well as regular dino oil." <br />Chief 100 says after clearing his throat, "Cobra, I thought one of the selling points of synthetic oils is that it doesn't burn at as low a temp as it's dino counterpart, therefore keeping it integrity longer".<br />"Well then," Cobra says, "Hows about the sludge that you claim came from your engine, that had to be just hanging around somewhere, you know like in the crankcases of 4s engines?"<br />"A 2s without an oil sump," Chief says, "and, with gasoline constantly cleaning the crankcase, I doubt there's any builtup sludge coming from there."<br />You have the idea Cobra, find out what works for you and use it, you can always find arguments to attempt to prove somebody wrong but the bottom line is find what works and go out and float your boat. Chief Chief

 

[pecheux]

Re: Less air & water toxicity with Amsoil at 100:1

WillyBWright: I did not know about unburned gazoline comming out of exhaust, if so you have a strong point, then why should anyone (like me) want to eliminate oil toxicity if gaz is the worst scenario ?<br /><br />Chief100: I donno about more unburned synt oil than reg oil. If that would be the case then motors used for trolling should avoid synt in order to prevent plug fouling ... Amsoil say otherwise: less plugs fouling ... <br /><br />Catransplant: 4 cylcles engines are booooorrrinng LOL LOL<br /><br />On another note having spent some time in Jacksonville fla, I have to agree that there is just never enough oil in pistons to fight humidity and rust. My Merc mecanic (and friend) tells me in such case engines should be stopped with carb full of fuel. <br /><br />who said fighting polution was going to be easy ?<br /><br />LOL<br /><br />Cheers Y'Awl

 

[pecheux]

Re: Less air & water toxicity with Amsoil at 100:1

Y'Awl, reason for activating such polution debate is this: Several northern lakes, including one where my son lives, and that I fish on, are controled by lakefront residents. They as of last year issued a rule that 2 cylcles engines will be forbidden on the lake in 2 or 3 years. Certain owners just bought their new outboards and would like to keep em for while. Once I get all the data, and IF positive I intend to have meetings with those lakefront owners and suggest a rule that would obligate 2 cycle owners to use AMsoil at 100:1 ratio and then have the END date pushed a few years.<br /><br />NOOOOO I dont want a 4 Cycle mochine ... LOL

 

[Paul Moir]

Re: Less air & water toxicity with Amsoil at 100:1

Explain to them the environmental impact of manufacturing a new outboard versus keeping your old one out of a landfill. The damage done to the environment by a lifetime's worth of 24:1 being run through your 15hp pales in comparison to the damage done by actually making a new outboard to replace it.<br /><br />If they're hell-bent on limiting 2-strokes, suggest they only limit larger ones as smaller ones use far less fuel and so produce less pollution. Bring up NOx emissions of 2-strokes versus 4-strokes. Mention the lack of catalytic converters, oxygen sensors, or really any form of emissions control on 4-strokes. At the very least, they'll have to make an exception for DFI 2-strokes as Bombardier's E-TEC won that environmental award from the US's EPA last year.<br /><br />Finally, rather than insist on something that goes against manufacture's recommendation and doesn't have regulatory approval, perhaps they can insist on a "Biodegradable" TC-W3 like Shell's Nautilus Biodegradable. Truth be known, all oils are biodegradable, it's when they're introduced in quantity to the environment (like in the case of a spill) that the microbes can't deal with it.<br /><br /><br />Sounds like you're dealing with some fairly narrow thinking folks. But I'll be willing to bet they'll come around to your way of thinking if you present your arguments right.

 

[cobra 3.0]

Re: Less air & water toxicity with Amsoil at 100:1

Chief 100, I'm not trying to "prove you wrong". I'm just trying to understand this mysterious elixor called oil in it's many forms! <br /><br />The crud I was referring to is the carbon buildup off your rings and tops of pistons. It might be getting, as you put it, "washed" off from the syn oil breaking it down.<br /><br />...hey how did you know it was over my second cup of coffee? Big brother is watching!

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Less air & water toxicity with Amsoil at 100:1

Im all for the environment, but this 2 cycle oil thing about polution is a joke. I live on a lake that is preasured like you cant even beleive on the weekends and we dont have any restrictions at all as far as 2 cycles. after a busy weekend, there isnt an oil slick to be found, not even around the boat ramp area where starting the engines when cold happens most. The microbs are very busy, and seem to be doing a great job. Many people get there water from this lake and it is tested all the time.<br /><br />As far as the 100:1 Amsoil, I have used it a lot in the past, and that was before they separated it into two different oils, Which by the way was a good thing as air cooled and water cooled oils realy need to be separated to make great oils. The 100:1 oils do not have solvents in them so you really are not running at a true 100:1 like they would like you to beleive. More like about 80:1 would be my guess. I think most outboards would run fine with an 80:1 mix with just regular TC-W3 oils, unless they were run hard all the time. When you mix the 100:1 at 80:1 , you are back very close to the 50:1 where you should be.<br /><br />Just rambling here!

 

[pecheux]

Re: Less air & water toxicity with Amsoil at 100:1

Paul Moir, Thank you for all those suggestions. I just had a meeting with one of the top outboard motor autority in this province (state) regarding all this and it becomes obvious that the Amsoil Saber at 100:1 is not necessarely THE answer. It would seem at this time that Biodegradable 2 cycles oils such as the one you mentioned (shell Nautilus) is a better path to follow. By the way I did not know of the biodegradabilty of this shell nautilus oil.<br /><br />So at this point again I am back to square one and I have to deal with new recommendations such as using biodegradable oil (or synt) at 50:1 and and using higher grade gasoline.<br /><br />Any other suggestions will help.<br /><br />Cheers to Y'Awl<br /><br /><br />PS: WillyBWright: You have been confirmed wright by my experts ... 20% of the 2 cycle mixture goes out unburned (as per your saying)

 

[Paul Moir]

Re: Less air & water toxicity with Amsoil at 100:1

Running a higher grade gasoline than recommended will likely promote HC emissions and is hard on most outboards. Best stick with the manufacturer's suggested grade, which is often 87 (regular) but can be quite a bit lower on small outboards. Expensive isn't better; just buy what your outboard needs.

 

[pecheux]

Re: Less air & water toxicity with Amsoil at 100:1

Paul Moir, Nova Scotia man ... luky too, surounded by ocean. I m jalous. Been there up to halifax .... LOOOOve it.<br /><br />The idea of using one step higher grade gasoline comes from my long time friend ex Merc dealer but still operates his shop. He claims that gasoline is not as good quality as it used to be since approx 5 to 8 years, so he claims using 1 grade up (89) and even 91 can be beneficial to a better running engine, or anything that run with gasoline anyway. <br /><br />He's an authority in the field in this province so I have a tendency to listen when he talks ... LOL but then he doent claim to be strucked by the thruth ... LOL Admitedly I have been using both grade 89 and 91 lately and both my outboards seem to run more evenly ... maybe it's my imagination ... who knows ... LOL<br /><br />Hum ... still thinking about those delicious lobster the wife and I had right on the dock in Nova Scotia ... not too far from where New Brunswick starts at the north narrow end of NS. LOL

 

[pecheux]

Re: Less air & water toxicity with Amsoil at 100:1

Paul Moir ,,, huh one more thang ... lol I have one Force 15 hp and a Johnson 9.9 I keep on reading on these forums that a higher grade gas should be used with any Force motor ... mind you I dont know why it would be such only for Force outboards.

 

[Paul Moir]

Re: Less air & water toxicity with Amsoil at 100:1

You should be jealous. It is awfully nice up there on the Northumberland Straight. I spent about a month once about a 45 minute drive up toward New Brunswick from Pugwash once, you could look over the straight to see either PEI or NB. Sounds like around the same place you were. Lorneville I think?<br /><br />I know absolutely nothing about Forces, they are sort of rare here. I think I've seen many more old Chryslers. The Johnny will love 87. I understand there's a few Mercs that like 89 or even 91 better - the older "Tower of Power" inline 6 engines for example. Different octanes for different engines I guess.<br /><br />---<br />"Still trying to fit Repair into the Reduce-Reuse-Recycle triangle"