Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

[64osby]

My father inlaw has a 2006 Chrysler Grand Caravan. It was running great. He took it to a shop to have the tires rotated. The next day has was driving and all 4 disc brakes started locking up, they were smoking hot. He drove to the same shop. They inspected it.

All the brakes had locked up, the fluid had boiled, all the seals had melted. He ended up spending a grand to have it fixed. no one can tell him what caused the problem.

Is there any chance the shop that did the rotation caused the problem with the brakes?

 

[jimr]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

did they top off the fluids while it was there? they could have put oil in the brake reservoir

 

[64osby]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

I'll have to ask him if anyother services were done other than the wheel rotation.

How would oil in the brake fluid reservoir cause the brakes to lockup?

Based on you stats I think your the guy to ask Thanks for answering.

 

[buddybarnhill]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

if they just did a plain wheel rotation then no theres no way that they could have done it you may have a bad master cylinder tho experience my dad is a master diesel/auto mechanic i know lots about cars

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

Oil contamination in brake fluid causes the rubber seals and other parts in the sytem to swell. That can trap the fluid in places it's supposed to leave. Like behind the caliper pistons after you release the brake pedal. Or internally in the master cylinder.
So unless the shop did any other service, no they didn't cause it be rotating the tires.

I saw brakes locked up long enough on a Range Rover once, that it caught a brake hose on fire and melted some plastic pieces and a rear tire! But it wasn't fluid contamination, it was a mechanical failure of a supplementary nitrogen pressure tank, that supplied power brakes if the truck were to quit running. That Dodge Grand Caravan doesn't have that.

 

[dolluper]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

ABS controller went for a crap to lock up all four....better idea from Dodge

 

[64osby]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

The whole system was replaced master cylinder, lines, calipers pads and rotors.

I talked to a few mechanics I know and they could think of nothing that would case the whole system to fail.

The Chrysler dealership could not think of one thing that would cause the system to fail like that.

I did learn they did a "Safety Check" on the whole car at the time of the rotation.

I know the same shop did both jobs. All the parts were tossed by the shop. It just seems strange that the system would sieze, boil and tear everything up the day after a service.

I've driven over a million miles with a whole lot of different vehicles and there is only one vehicle that I've ever had to rebuild the master brake cylinder and thats a 1962 Land Rover

 

[dolluper]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

No replace the controller....but everything else hummm...sounds fishy to me....but with 40 years experience what would I know

 

[64osby]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

I'll have to double check the paper work and take a look at the ABS controller under the hood.

The sad thing is the vehicle went out of warranty less than 2 weeks ago.

Gimme an older vehicle without all the tecky stuff any day of the week.

 

[Bifflefan]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

I'll have to double check the paper work and take a look at the ABS controller under the hood.

The sad thing is the vehicle went out of warranty less than 2 weeks ago.

Gimme an older vehicle without all the tecky stuff any day of the week.

i still would have tried to get some of it covered under a warranty. if your nice to them they will sometimes work with you. if that doesnt work you can try my approach and raise all hell. that doesnt alwasys work eather but i sure feel better...

 

[dolluper]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

I have replaced many ABS controllers on different makes of vehicles since most people don't bleed their brakes when doing brakes jobs to get rid of the moisture in the system ...most auto supply stores sell test strips to check the moisture content at the master ...2 second test ....controllers from all makes hate moisture ...it's almost like having dual masters to put it in easier terms

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

i still would have tried to get some of it covered under a warranty. if your nice to them they will sometimes work with you. if that doesnt work you can try my approach and raise all hell. that doesnt alwasys work eather but i sure feel better...

Yep. If they won't extend a warranty by two weeks, they don't deserve your business.

Listen to dolluper, if they didn't replace the ABS controller, and it's a known issue in those vehicles, then you are going to have the same problem, and soon.

 

[64osby]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

bifflefan

if your nice to them they will sometimes work with you. if that doesnt work you can try my approach and raise all hell.

Great suggestion thanks.

I once bought a used 1 ton van, still under warranty. It had been transported and I'm pretty sure, they locked in the rear breaks so tight they warped the drums. I took it to the dealership and they told me the transmission was bad. I said ok fix it. A week later I got it back drove it 2 miles and took it back to them, told them the brakes were bad. They played with it for a few days and gave it back to me. This time I drove around the building and right back in. The van would surge at idle speed. They took it back in, called me the next day and said nothing could be done.

I called ford customer sevice and reminded them of what the lemon law was all about. I got the van back 2 days later with a complete brand new brake system, and a new tranny to boot

 

[v1_0]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

I know the same shop did both jobs. All the parts were tossed by the shop. It just seems strange that the system would sieze, boil and tear everything up the day after a service.

I agree that it is very strange timing, and it is very hard to think that the two are unrelated. Perhaps we could even say it is suspicious...

With that in mind, what possessed you to go back to the same place? ? ?

The first thing that should have happened is a determination of what caused the problem!!! Otherwise, you can't tell if you've fixed the actual problem (as opposed to repairing the damage that the problem caused). If you haven't fixed the problem, then it can reoccur.

That is also the only way that you can know if the shop that did the 'safety service' did something to cause this.

I would think that the shop would do this to allay any suspicions, or at least that would be what I would do in the same circumstance. It might take a bit of time, but compare that to the potential loss of a customer...

Next item: the parts were trashed. On TV, this would be the guilty husband creamating the wife's body so that no autopsy could be performed... Without having determined the cause of the failure, disposing of the parts is getting rid of anything that could be used to determine the reason for the failure...

Now, all that brings me to my idea. (You did ask for any ideas). And it is this: Don't go back to that shop, find a new one.

I know nothing can be proven now, but I have enough suspicion of the shop to suspect that someone screwed up somehow (topping off the brakes with the wrong stuff), and they didn't care to figure out if that were true or not.

 

[v1_0]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

Ok, I went out to the 'net and did a little research on this sort of thing...

First, I found out that we should replace our brake fluid every 2 years or so. As in 'drain and replace', just like what we do with engine oil. Evidently, brake fluid is designed to absorb water (much the way the alcohol in gas will do that) in order to protect the braking system. After about 2 years, it has absorbed enough water that the boiling point of the brake fluid drops...

Second, I found that in normal braking systems the brake fluid gets heated up due to the heat that is generated by the brake pads - this conducts to the fluid. If this heat exceeds the boiling point of the fluid, it will boil - and you will loose the ability to brake. This is an 'analog' loss in that it is proportional to the condition of your brake fluid and amount of heat. It is usually just a softness of the pedal, and can get to the point where it requires you to pump. However, no damage to the rest of the braking system seems to occur (it wasn't mentioned). I guess the boiling point of the fluid, even 'fresh', is lower than any heat damage point to the rest of the system.

Under normal conditions, this seems to be self limiting in that when the brake fluid boils you loose the hydraulic force that is causing the brake pads to push on the rotor. No pressure = no friction = no heat. Until things cool down enough for the brake fluid to remain fluid. Of course, it also means no stopping force in the meanwhile.. Note that the boiling of the fluid also acts to absorb heat.

When brakes lock up it seems to be under an abnormal condition: when there is some blockage that prevents the normal circulation of brake fluid. In this case, the brake fluid in the brake cylinder can't boil (pressure changes the boiling point of a liquid), so there is no loss of pressure on the caliper. Even so, I don't see how the master cylinder gets damaged by this - not sure how the heat would be conducted up that far...

 

[pmat1]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

lemon law?

 

[64osby]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

lemon law?

Yea lemon law. If there is a re-occuring problem with a vehicle, 3 or more, with in defined period (which I don't know) the manufacturer has to buy it back or replace with equal vehicle. Newer vehicles only.

It's been around about 20 years. I don't know the exact verbage but, if you can show a car has a problem and the dealership can't fix it the manufacturer has to buy it back.

v1_0
I didn't go back, It's my father-in law, he's about 82, still pretty sharp, and when your brakes are about to catch on fire, I would go to the closest shop too.

I know my choice would have been a different shop, but hey, they are safe and the vehicle seems to be working. Still need to see if the ABS controller was replaced or not.

 

[JustJason]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

over torquing or incorrectly torqueing wheels to the hub will warp rotors like you read about. If the person doing the rotation was a monkey and not a mechanic then he most certainly could have warped all 4 rotors. And warped them bad. But you should have noticed it within minutes of driving out of the place (sometimes the brakes need to heat up a bit before you notice a warp)
Some of these kids start off at shops as monkeys and with their 1rst paycheck go out and buy the biggest thundergun they can buy.

 

[Zeeter]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

Yep. If they won't extend a warranty by two weeks, they don't deserve your business.

.

They didn't get the gravy work business. Nobody knows what some independent did during a tire rotation.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Mini Van - Major Brake issue Any ideas????

They didn't get the gravy work business. Nobody knows what some independent did during a tire rotation.

Spoken like a true mechanic...

"Some other guy breathed on this car, now it's all screwed up, so I am not responsible."

If I had a nickel for every time I heard a mechanic make that cop-out excuse, well, I'd have as many nickels as I unloaded off the Brinks truck yesterday!

Oh, and all those, "I have to have it serviced at the dealer, or the warranty will be voided" types really chap me too. No you don't.

With proper documentation of what the tire store did, it should not be a problem to show they didn't touch the brake system. And didn't cause the problem.