Motor Still Surging @ Revolutions Above 3000 RPM's

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CaptainSteve75

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Yamaha 99 S200TXRX

The chain of events that occur are as follows

1. Clean and rebuilt carbs with kit...New Spark Plugs...New Mech. Thermostats.
2. Tested Motor using portable tank with fresh gas. No issues with boat Gas Line, Bulb, fuel filter, and water separator.
3. Resistance test (engine off, Ambient temp of 68-70 degrees) was conducted and all results were in range per manual, Thermo switches, Thermometer, Oil Float sw 1, 2, and 3, CPS (gap fixed), Both sides of Pulser out of top and bottom of CDI, Lighting coil, Stator, Rectifier, Ignition coil.
4. Spark (Blue strong) and compression test within range per manual.
5. Wiring: Followed every wire from components to CDI from CDI to Wire Harness to ensure proper connection. Found couple of wire loose not making proper contact and repaired them.

Issue at hand when engine reaches above 2500 - 3000 RPMs the engine starts to surge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhECQvyJylQ

It goes up to 5000 rpms then down to 3000 then down to 1000 and back up to 3000 with remote at WOT.

The power is there...but there is definitely something that is holding it back...Some of you mention something about lose the pulser coil and it dumps 4 cylinders...Is there some kind of dianostic tool I can use to further troubleshoot this problem.

Also I have not done any load test while the enigine is running I was hoping I can find a dianostic tool. My guess is that one of the pulsers or the stator which mimics fuel problem which may be on its way out.
 
reeldutch

reeldutch

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Re: Motor Still Surging @ Revolutions Above 3000 RPM's

you can not rev up a motor in the neutral position.
you will have to put it in the water and put it in gear.
there is a rev limiter that will prevent you from over revving if there is no load on the motor.
that might be the surging you are talking about.
there might be nothing wrong with your engine.
go to the ramp stick it in the water, start it up,warm it upo.put it in gear and test it again.
good luck.
 
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CaptainSteve75

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Re: Motor Still Surging @ Revolutions Above 3000 RPM's

Thanks for your reply...This occurs both in water and out of water with hose hooked up...Any more suggestions...I am dying over here.

Just last night, 2:30 am at the ramp conducting water test, after installing a new Stator Coil recommend by a local mechanic, It was still doing the same thing.

6. Stator Coil ruled out, oringinal works fine.

Also, what I did found to be strange when replacing the the stator coil, I noticed the Pulser Coil only had 2 coils vs 3 as illustrated in every diagram for my specific model 1999 S200TXRX.

I hoping this is the problem...any help on this before I commit to spending $617.00 on a new Pulser Coil 64D-85580-00-00 for engine model S200TXRX
 
reeldutch

reeldutch

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Re: Motor Still Surging @ Revolutions Above 3000 RPM's

have a friend run the boat while underway with the engine surging pull a plug wire of and see what happens.
this way you might find the cylinders that are acting up .

also how do the plugs look like?

run the motor till its start surging and cut the ignition of while you are in that surge mode.
than look at the plugs are there any that are soaked or bone dry?

when its acting up hit the choke, ... does it change?

check also for fuel pressure.

good luck
 
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iammarcuse

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Re: Motor Still Surging @ Revolutions Above 3000 RPM's

The video is helpful. Totally seems like a fuel restriction. I would completely eliminate that possibility before I spent a dime on ignition.
I can guarrantee Rodbolt will tell you to do the fuel pumps. Hopefully he'll check in.
I would run a fuel pressure test. The tester is only $15. Also, when you did the carbs did you did you use carb cleaner and compressed air to blow out very passageway? You can do the kit and still leave a blocked passage way. I always check to make sure air is coming out of every orfice. I pulled one set of carbs 3 times before I realized I was putting it back together with a blockage every time.
 
cousinabe

cousinabe

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Re: Motor Still Surging @ Revolutions Above 3000 RPM's

T in a vacuum gauge between the engine mounter filter and low pressure fuel pump. make sure you are maintaining between 3-4Hg. anything less and you have an issue forward, anything higher and you have a restriction between the fuel supply.
I agree with iammarcuse
 
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CaptainSteve75

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Re: Motor Still Surging @ Revolutions Above 3000 RPM's

Thank You...

7. Replaced lp fuel pumps Same Condition

cousinabe: I have not conducted a pressure test, I will look into that.

iammarcuse: Did clean the carbs using fresh Gas and Air Compressor, blew out every hole, some had minor gunk. This I did twice.

reeldutch: Have not pulled the wire to see what happens, does do it some times in neutral hooked up to hose, dont have a test tank. Plugs need to be Checked. Playing with choke does not improve it.

What I did notice at idle when I pulled the spark plugs cables one by one, all cause the motor to slow down, but the bottom two Cylinder #3 and #6 did not effect motor at all and there was a spark.
 
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99yam40

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Re: Motor Still Surging @ Revolutions Above 3000 RPM's

Is there a reason you have not checked things given to you in your earlier posts and then start asking again in this one?

Like said before it is easier to test and replace things that do not function properly according to the testing than to just replace parts and hope.

"What I did notice at idle when I pulled the spark plugs cables one by one, all cause the motor to slow down, but the bottom two Cylinder #3 and #6 did not effect motor at all and there was a spark."

Does this say anything to you like fuel problems if there is good compression on all cylinders and there is good spark?

The diagnostic tools you are looking for is a peak reading volt meter and a Manual.
 
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rodbolt

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Re: Motor Still Surging @ Revolutions Above 3000 RPM's

bottom cylinders are 5 and 6 not 3 and 6.
port side is 2,4,6 stbd side is 1,3,5.
check primary ign coil voltage at the problem speed under a load.
that engine uses 2 pulser coils and a crank position sensor.
sensor output voltage can be tested with a peak reading multimeter at the problem RPM under load.
lose the CPS and you dump cylinders 2 and 5, lose a pulser coil and you dump spark to 2 and 5 as well as the other two cylinders controled by the failed pulser.
2 pulsers control 4 ign coils and the CPS and the ECU control spark to cyls 2 and 5.
my guess is your still fighting fuel issues but the ign system can be tested in a few minutes by simply testing ign coil primary voltage or secondary Kv testing.
 
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CaptainSteve75

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Re: Motor Still Surging @ Revolutions Above 3000 RPM's

Once again Gentlemen I sincerely thank you for your time and patiences...

99yam40 hang in there buddy I know I must be fustrating heck out of you guys.

Just to let you know how much you guys have help me, I went from knowing very basic stuff (ex. Changing gear oil, water pump, and overhauling carburators) to troubleshooting every component on the motor based your advice. The only thing I need to learn is how to rebuild an engine (not in this case) and I can graduate...LOL My friends call me the Youtube Mechanic.

And now, back to business...I took all of your combine advices and thoroughly went thru the feul lines and carbs again (Carb Cleaner, Blasted every hole). What I did notice was Carb #3 was a different Nikki Carb from what it is specked in the manual. Barrels are slightly smaller, Now I am assuming the jets might not be the right. I understand the jetting concept, when I changed the pipes on my chopper, I change the jet on my S&S Carb. But that come with the kits that give you the right size jet.

If this might be the case does anyone know the size of the jet I need?

By the end of this week I am going to see if I can rule out the pulser coil by testing it using robolt's recommended method mentioned above. I know I am hard headed, but at this point that is the only thing I have left to check other than the CDI, if all else fails.

I am also going to conduct a carburator test with the propane torch, not lit, that wouldn't be good...on carb #3 which are the same cylinders 5 and 6 (Thanks Robolt for teaching me the order) I mention that when I pulled the spark plugs that had spark (blue) did not affect the engines rpms. Thanks to 99yam40 for bringing this to light in his previous post.

Any Add'l suggestion wolud be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Captain Steve

A word to the wise from the not so wise:

Never by anything from anyone in South Florida, especially in a city like Miami or Hialeah. They rig stuff up, tell you everthing works fine then your stuck with a POS.
 
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CaptainSteve75

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Re: Motor Still Surging @ Revolutions Above 3000 RPM's

More Videos to help pin point the problem:

1. 1999 Yamaha S200 Gas Flow Demo: (Pressure test good, Gas flow to Carb good) Brand new Carb for #5 and #6 and still the same surging.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0BQEQNPwRw

2. 1999 Yamaha S200 Ignition Port Side (#2 drops and maybe starting to lose # 6 at problem RPM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYQJ5lXQktY

3. 1999 Yamaha S200 Ignition Starboard Side (#1 drops and maybe starting #5 at problem RPM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9bILxkHbI8

Thank again in advance and support to this matter.

Steve

Please note, from idle to 2500 Rpm, all plugs get spark and does effect engine performance when removed.
 
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CaptainSteve75

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Re: Motor Still Surging @ Revolutions Above 3000 RPM's

99yam thanks for the link, sounds like me, this was extremely helpful...I was hoping it was something simple as a fuel restriction.

Being that the stator was previously swapped out and ruled out, I am down to the pulser coil and CPS.

I hope it is only the CPS which is about 150 and the pulser coil for 600. But based on Rodbolts previous post. Looks like I might be doing both.
 
9

99yam40

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Re: Motor Still Surging @ Revolutions Above 3000 RPM's

The point of it all is to test and find the problem.

If you do not find a problem with the electronics and sparking. Then chase the fuel problem. If you have the wrong carb on motor that is a problem
 
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rodbolt

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Re: Motor Still Surging @ Revolutions Above 3000 RPM's

sierra makes a nice little analog meter that replaces the 91- mercury part number.
can be purchased at about any napa store or west marine or any other seirra dealer.its about 119 dollars.
you would have found the issue weeks ago.
it can and will test the CPS,pulser coil outputs,stator charge coil outputs and CDI outputs as well as sparkplug cap resistance.
only drawback is its analog so its polarity sensitive.
if you already own a DVM simply buy the 69 dollar DVA adapter and TEST everything rather than splatter gunning.
what we call a pokin and a hopen.
which usually turns into pokin and a choken.
with the peak reading meter you can test every electrical and electronic device on that engine in about 45 minutes and either confirm OR eliminate the electrical.
 
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CaptainSteve75

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Re: Motor Still Surging @ Revolutions Above 3000 RPM's

When using the DVA Meter, do I need to split wires, buy test harness, or by induction?
 
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rodbolt

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Re: Motor Still Surging @ Revolutions Above 3000 RPM's

depends on what your testing.
NEVER EVER puncture the wire insulation. IT WILL lead to problems.
usually I can slip a paperclip up the backside of the connector if its a one shot deal.
however I mostly buy the test adapters as I am likly to use it again.
 
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CaptainSteve75

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Re: Motor Still Surging @ Revolutions Above 3000 RPM's

Thanks again...Finally getting a DVA meter by sierra from iboats (showing support)...I did cheat only because I had the time and parts to swap out...I ruled out stator coil, pulser coil, and CPS...Still going to use DVA it to test CDI and I am assuming the coil packs as well.
 
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